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Concealed Carry in National Parks


149 replies to this topic

#41 OFFLINE   jhawk282

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Posted 07 December 2008 - 09:43 AM

QUOTE (AlaskaShooTer @ Dec 7 2008, 08:10 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Clive I don't see it heated up as much as a few of us are speaking our minds on the topic of concealed carry in public and in our National Parks. This change has been a long time coming and it's about time.

George
Twisp, WA

I guess I mis nderstood the coment about smug canadians.There are lots of cdns that are passionate about heir guns. We just got some off the wall regulations.
I agree with the changes made to Carrying in Nat parks ets. I would love to have the privelage of carrying. Here ,the closest i can get to that is having a permit to transport a handgun to the range or sporting event.
I have always felt comfortable around guns and respect your laws as well. I am not a US citizen so will settle for not being able to carry or possess while in the US


#42 OFFLINE   jhawk282

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Posted 07 December 2008 - 10:04 AM

Talk about handguns? Here is an item that is designed for safety purposes and resembles a revolver.Another company even took it a step further and designed an insert for a .38 cal.bullet Single shot though, too bad,eh? I wonder which would be more threatening the .38 or the 12 Ga.
The design ,I am sure is intentional. If you are on the water any amount you will be familiar with this product.
http://www.captainforhire.com/products.
htmp://www.orionsignals.com/Marine/Products/aerial.html
http://www.woodenboa...d.php?p=1883732

#43 OFFLINE   PigPen

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Posted 07 December 2008 - 10:15 AM

I think the Canadian view on US firearm laws, and correct me if I am wrong, is that they are too easy to obtain by people who cannot handle them properly. Sort of like giving a drivers license to someone who only knows what a steering wheel is. That perception is reinforced by the high rate of accidental firearm deaths down there.

Speaking for myself, I have no problem with people owning guns. I do have a problem with them being easily obtainable by criminals or sold to people who don't follow basic safety rules like keeping them away from children.

IMO, it is the owners who need to be licensed, not the guns.

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#44 OFFLINE   ralphl

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Posted 07 December 2008 - 11:01 AM

QUOTE (PigPen @ Dec 7 2008, 11:15 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I think the Canadian view on US firearm laws, and correct me if I am wrong, is that they are too easy to obtain by people who cannot handle them properly. Sort of like giving a drivers license to someone who only knows what a steering wheel is. That perception is reinforced by the high rate of accidental firearm deaths down there.

Speaking for myself, I have no problem with people owning guns. I do have a problem with them being easily obtainable by criminals or sold to people who don't follow basic safety rules like keeping them away from children.

IMO, it is the owners who need to be licensed, not the guns.


Paul,

There are many, even here is the US, that agree with you. Easy access to firearms by the irresponsible or criminal is a problem. However, when a government passes laws outlawing their possession across the board, a predictable situation occurs. Law abiding citizens will obey the law and will no longer own them. Criminals and miscreants who pay no attention to laws anyway, will still get them. That leaves the law-abiding defenseless at the hands of armed criminals.

A middle road that makes tremendously good sense, is to allow the law abiding to carry them concealed and possess them. Now, those same criminals have to make a decision. Is this an absolutely un-armed, defenseless victim or when I crash through this door, do I stand a chance of being shot to death? Oftentimes that creates enough uncertainty in the criminal's mind, that they seek a career change.

Not the best solution, but the best solution we have and crime statistics in the states that allow concealed carry back this up.

Again, bringing the subject back to the specifics of camping, especially T/Cing and this forum - however sensitive this subject appears, it should be addressed and thought through. I wish you hadn't used the analogy of steering wheels and driver's licenses. It's not an apples to apples comparison.

The majority of people have never even heard a heated argument, most have never witnessed a fist fight and that level of anger. Those who have never witnessed a life threatening situation find it hard to relate. Those who have been in harm's way and seen man at his ugliest understand that preparation (with much fore thought) is important.
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#45 OFFLINE   FedAgent

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Posted 07 December 2008 - 11:10 AM

QUOTE (PigPen @ Dec 7 2008, 12:15 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I think the Canadian view on US firearm laws, and correct me if I am wrong, is that they are too easy to obtain by people who cannot handle them properly. Sort of like giving a drivers license to someone who only knows what a steering wheel is. That perception is reinforced by the high rate of accidental firearm deaths down there.


Paul, that is a very common misconception. The only thing that an real "gun laws" have ever done is make it much more difficult for "Joe Average" to obtain a firearm, for whatever purpose, target shooting, home defense or simple peace of mind. The bad guys do not consider for one moment, the laws of the land. If they want a handgun, they will obtain it, God knows there are plenty of them a available on the street. They may have to rob several homes or people to raise the funds to buy it from some supplier on the back street, but, the fact remains, the gun laws have nothing whatsoever to do with the criminal element, they only put road blocks and obstacles in the path of the decent, law biding citizens. I have never heard of a dirt bag criminal who bought a handgun at a legitimate gun store, registered and obtained a concealed carry license, and then decided to use it to commit armed robbery. I have never understood why anyone worries about a normal, law biding citizen having a weapon on his nightstand or in his RV when every gang banger out there has a trunk full of guns. Gun laws are worthless, they only effect those people who understand and abide by the law, when the real issue is the criminals who have guns, always will have guns and wouldn't know, and don't care about firearm restrictions.
Larry,<br />Corpus Christi, Tejas<br />2007 Lazy Daze Class C and a 2005 Jeep Wrangler toad<br />04 Dodge 3500, Cummins<br /><br /><strong class='bbc'>Only two defining forces have ever offered to die for you: 1. Jesus Christ. 2. The American G.I. One died for your soul, the other for your Freedom. </strong><br /><br /><br /><span style='font-family: Arial'><span style='color: #FF0000'>"We sleep safe in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit</span></span><br /><span style='color: #FF0000'>violence on those who would do us harm." - </span><span style='color: #000000'>George Orwell</span>

#46 OFFLINE   Dean

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Posted 07 December 2008 - 11:39 AM

It is not all that easy to get a carry permit and at least in Connecticut, you have to have a permit in order to even purchase a handgun and complete a hunter safety course to get a long gun or hunting licience. One has to have a background check and go through training as noted in a previous post. There will always be a way for guns to fall into the wrong hands. I was just thinking of the machette that Paul mentioned, there was a movement in England a year or two ago to ban knives! I feel that a person should be able to defend himself, his family or his property with any means that will get the job done and if that means blowing away some dirtbag thief or pervert crawling throung a window in the middle of the night or kicking down your door than so be it. I live in a rural area of a highly populated state and I would be very surprised to see a police prescience in less that 15 or 20 minutes in an emergency.
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#47 OFFLINE   ralphl

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Posted 07 December 2008 - 11:53 AM

QUOTE (Dean @ Dec 7 2008, 12:39 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
It is not all that easy to get a carry permit and at least in Connecticut, you have to have a permit in order to even purchase a handgun and complete a hunter safety course to get a long gun or hunting licience. One has to have a background check and go through training as noted in a previous post. There will always be a way for guns to fall into the wrong hands. I was just thinking of the machette that Paul mentioned, there was a movement in England a year or two ago to ban knives! I feel that a person should be able to defend himself, his family or his property with any means that will get the job done and if that means blowing away some dirtbag thief or pervert crawling throung a window in the middle of the night or kicking down your door than so be it. I live in a rural area of a highly populated state and I would be very surprised to see a police prescience in less that 15 or 20 minutes in an emergency.

my son lives very close to you and just went through the process. time consuming but not difficult..
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#48 OFFLINE   Clattertruck

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Posted 07 December 2008 - 12:46 PM

QUOTE (PigPen @ Dec 7 2008, 11:15 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I think the Canadian view on US firearm laws, and correct me if I am wrong, is that they are too easy to obtain by people who cannot handle them properly. Sort of like giving a drivers license to someone who only knows what a steering wheel is. That perception is reinforced by the high rate of accidental firearm deaths down there.


I would like to call attention to facts about firearms accidents in the US. Contrary to the perception that there are a lot of gun accidents the statistic from the National Center for Health Statistics and the National Safety Council show the opposite.
• Firearm accident deaths have been decreasing for decades. Since 1930, their annual number has decreased 80%, while the U.S. population has more than doubled and the number of firearms has quintupled. Among children, such deaths have decreased 89% since 1975.
• Firearm accident deaths are at an all-time annual low, while the U.S. population is at an all-time high. Therefore, the firearm accident death rate is at an all-time annual low, 0.2 per 100,000 population, down 94% since the all-time high in 1904.
• Today, the odds are a million to one, against a child in the U.S. dying in a firearm accident.
• Firearms are involved in 0.6% of accidental deaths nationally. Most accidental deaths involve, or are due to, motor vehicles (39%), poisoning (18%), falls (16%), suffocation (5%), drowning (2.9%), fires (2.8%), medical mistakes (2.2%), environmental factors (1.2%), and bicycles and tricycles (0.7%). Among children: motor vehicles (45%), suffocation (18%), drowning (14%), fires (9%), bicycles and tricycles (2.4%), falls (2%), poisoning (1.6%),environmental factors (1.5%), and medical mistakes (0.8%).
The number of gun owners is also at an all-time high. The U.S. population is at an all-time high (294 million), and rises about 1% annually.5 Numerous surveys over the last 40+ years have found that almost half of all households have at least one gun owner. The number of privately owned guns in the U.S. rises by about 4.5 million per year.

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#49 OFFLINE   Mr Firewood

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Posted 07 December 2008 - 01:28 PM

I knew there was a reason to ban those killer tricycles and their even more dangerous two wheeled friends the killer bicycle. biggrin.gif Now I wonder if there are more bicycles and tricycles then guns at any given time in the US? I know I've got 3 of the killer two wheeled devices out in my garage. Plus you don't have to wear a safety helmet to target practice with your handgun. Not likely to get road rash from falling off your gun either.

Great research stats Clatertruck. I was surprised by a couple of them. Like the number of households with at least one person owning a firearm.

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#50 OFFLINE   sirwilliam

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Posted 07 December 2008 - 01:37 PM

This, firearms for everyone and right it off as being self reliant is a load of BS!!!! Firearms in the hands of people who have been properly trained to use them is much more palitable!! I have a sneaking suspicion that those who carry 357 & 44 magnums are Dirty Harry wannabees!! Have any of you ever witnessed what a round from either does to the human body?? It's not a pretty sight. The paper thin walls of any RV manufactured today will not stop a stray round fired in a so called self protection scenario!! I would say even 3 or 4 RV walls wouldn't stop that chunk of lead. It could end up in some poor unsuspecting soul's head and then he is dead. Some people out there are packin' rods in not only the glove box of their units but also in the RV itself. Heaven forbid a youngster finds said weapon and, well, you all know the rest. Call me a bleeding heart liberal or call me what you like but weapons are better left in well trained hands. The thought of people leaving these weapons in a loaded state anywhere but a recognised security area does not instill a lot of confidence and a RV is not a secure location. I've often wondered that if an unsavory individual breaks into a vehicle/RV and steals one of the above mentioned weapons is it the owners responsibility if said individual kills someone in the comission of a crime? I think common sense dictates that if an RV'er watches out for himself and his family and plays it safe when choosing a park/campground then the odds should be in his favour when it comes to safety. Like I stated earlier, leave the weapons in the hands of properly trained individuals and the police!! BO is gonna see that this is the case in the not to distant future!!.......................................Steve... fing32.gif fing32.gif

PS: Don't try and bring your magnums or oozies into Canada as you'll be in for an unpleasant surprise............


#51 OFFLINE   jhawk282

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Posted 07 December 2008 - 01:52 PM

No matter what the stats say, we are still packing our bikes,and hit `er for Dodge.DSCF0012.JPG DSCF0012.JPG

#52 OFFLINE   jimd40

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Posted 07 December 2008 - 03:10 PM

Well when we travel Nancy carries her UZI to protect me.......i dont know how to shoot......this past summer when we headed into BC they tried to get her tomatoes .. But she ate them fast.....lol jim

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#53 OFFLINE   ralphl

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Posted 07 December 2008 - 04:25 PM

QUOTE (sirwilliam @ Dec 7 2008, 02:37 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
This, firearms for everyone and right it off as being self reliant is a load of BS!!!! Firearms in the hands of people who have been properly trained to use them is much more palitable!! I have a sneaking suspicion that those who carry 357 & 44 magnums are Dirty Harry wannabees!! Have any of you ever witnessed what a round from either does to the human body?? It's not a pretty sight. The paper thin walls of any RV manufactured today will not stop a stray round fired in a so called self protection scenario!! I would say even 3 or 4 RV walls wouldn't stop that chunk of lead. It could end up in some poor unsuspecting soul's head and then he is dead. Some people out there are packin' rods in not only the glove box of their units but also in the RV itself. Heaven forbid a youngster finds said weapon and, well, you all know the rest. Call me a bleeding heart liberal or call me what you like but weapons are better left in well trained hands. The thought of people leaving these weapons in a loaded state anywhere but a recognised security area does not instill a lot of confidence and a RV is not a secure location. I've often wondered that if an unsavory individual breaks into a vehicle/RV and steals one of the above mentioned weapons is it the owners responsibility if said individual kills someone in the comission of a crime? I think common sense dictates that if an RV'er watches out for himself and his family and plays it safe when choosing a park/campground then the odds should be in his favour when it comes to safety. Like I stated earlier, leave the weapons in the hands of properly trained individuals and the police!! BO is gonna see that this is the case in the not to distant future!!.......................................Steve... fing32.gif fing32.gif

PS: Don't try and bring your magnums or oozies into Canada as you'll be in for an unpleasant surprise............

thats UZI
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#54 OFFLINE   Dean

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Posted 08 December 2008 - 05:50 AM

QUOTE (sirwilliam @ Dec 7 2008, 04:37 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
This, firearms for everyone and right it off as being self reliant is a load of BS!!!! Firearms in the hands of people who have been properly trained to use them is much more palitable!! I have a sneaking suspicion that those who carry 357 & 44 magnums are Dirty Harry wannabees!! Have any of you ever witnessed what a round from either does to the human body?? It's not a pretty sight. The paper thin walls of any RV manufactured today will not stop a stray round fired in a so called self protection scenario!! I would say even 3 or 4 RV walls wouldn't stop that chunk of lead. It could end up in some poor unsuspecting soul's head and then he is dead. Some people out there are packin' rods in not only the glove box of their units but also in the RV itself. Heaven forbid a youngster finds said weapon and, well, you all know the rest. Call me a bleeding heart liberal or call me what you like but weapons are better left in well trained hands. The thought of people leaving these weapons in a loaded state anywhere but a recognised security area does not instill a lot of confidence and a RV is not a secure location. I've often wondered that if an unsavory individual breaks into a vehicle/RV and steals one of the above mentioned weapons is it the owners responsibility if said individual kills someone in the comission of a crime? I think common sense dictates that if an RV'er watches out for himself and his family and plays it safe when choosing a park/campground then the odds should be in his favour when it comes to safety. Like I stated earlier, leave the weapons in the hands of properly trained individuals and the police!! BO is gonna see that this is the case in the not to distant future!!.......................................Steve... fing32.gif fing32.gif

PS: Don't try and bring your magnums or oozies into Canada as you'll be in for an unpleasant surprise............


Well, I guess I would take the invitation to call you a bleeding heart liberal and I would be completely dumbfounded if "BO" did anything at all with our gun rights, he has much more to worry about at present. I do not think that he is going to be the ultra-liberal that the rest of the world and the left here thought he was going to be. I agree with you about the danger of firing off heavy caliber gun in a campground and I strongly dissagree with you about the Dirty Harry Wannabee stereotype that you use to portray US gun owners. I respect your opinion and your laws north of the border, we have different laws and if we don't like it we can stay at home. I expect to go to Canada again this year and I will most certainly leave my guns at home.
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#55 OFFLINE   NL Ten 2000 RR

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Posted 08 December 2008 - 06:46 AM

SirWilliam,

What part of those excellent gun safety stats did you not agree with (they are seemingly valid statistics)?

How about accidental car deaths? Now there are some numbers you can really gasp in horror at.

If guns kill people..., then cars insist that people still have to drive, drunk or not.

If guns kill people..., then pencils cause spelling errors.


Around '37-38', Hitler confiscated guns from the German citizenry.

Gary


{Edited the partisan political comments out of this, otherwise this thread gets moved. Please no partisanship here}




#56 OFFLINE   WitchDoctor

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Posted 08 December 2008 - 07:07 AM

Thank you all for your civility in the discussion.

My own situation may be a metaphor for a lot of the country. I am not a felon and have not previously sought a CCW. The world, however, is changing. My daughter has confronted a bear right outside the front door and the neighborhood cats are disappearing to cougar(s). Add to that the meth house up the road and I now feel a need to have some weapon for protection ON MY OWN PROPERTY. National Parks are just an extension of Home.

So what will it be? Pepper spray? Perhaps, but it is quite easy to incapacitate yourself with the stuff - a real tear-jerking experience. A knife? Not quite. Carry a shotgun? Won't get any work done. So a handgun seems the prudent course.
Why a CCW? It will get me in with the people to get the proper instruction on laws, safety, and practice. Shooting is a skill and NOT shooting is another. Only practice will make the difference.

So now I am looking at having 13 rounds of 40 S/W on my hip and my wife will have her 20g Mossberg. I have 1200 rounds of practice ammo and 250 shells for her/me (buck-buck-slug, repeat). Just to get comfortable and to live our daily life.

I fear it is only going to get worse for a while yet.

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#57 OFFLINE   Dean

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Posted 08 December 2008 - 08:04 AM

I also would applaud the civility of this very passionate subject. Interesting piece today in the Chicago Sun Times related to this subject: http://www.suntimes....-120808.article .

Dean
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And our Golden Retrievers: Wyatt, Waylon and the spirit of Woody 6/1/98-2/23/10 Rest well, my old friend.
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#58 OFFLINE   PigPen

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Posted 08 December 2008 - 11:07 AM

In my mind, I feel guns should be allowed for responsible citizens. There is no doubt criminals will get them & use them, but possibly they should go to system like drivers licenses for gun ownership. You go through a safety course on operating & storing them & a background criminal check, just as you would before being allowed to drive a car. That could be done through reputable gun clubs, etc, not necessarily a government agency, although a government agency should issue the actual license. Then make the penalties for having a gun in your possession without you as an individual being licensed, severe. I realize some states have something similar to this already, sort of.

Licensing actual firearms has proven to be impractical, even in this country. That, I feel should be voluntary & free. Voluntary licensing could be useful if you ever had one stolen. If you reported it, & it was later used in a crime, suspicion would be less likely to fall on you.

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#59 OFFLINE   Dean

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Posted 08 December 2008 - 11:55 AM

QUOTE (PigPen @ Dec 8 2008, 02:07 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
In my mind, I feel guns should be allowed for responsible citizens. There is no doubt criminals will get them & use them, but possibly they should go to system like drivers licenses for gun ownership. You go through a safety course on operating & storing them & a background criminal check, just as you would before being allowed to drive a car. That could be done through reputable gun clubs, etc, not necessarily a government agency, although a government agency should issue the actual license. Then make the penalties for having a gun in your possession without you as an individual being licensed, severe. I realize some states have something similar to this already, sort of.

Licensing actual firearms has proven to be impractical, even in this country. That, I feel should be voluntary & free. Voluntary licensing could be useful if you ever had one stolen. If you reported it, & it was later used in a crime, suspicion would be less likely to fall on you.

Well said, Paul. There is a national check that has to be performed for one to be able to purchase a handgun, that is federal law. I think that Connecticut is typical in their gun laws, but I am not sure. We have to go through a hunter safety course to get a hunting license, and you need that or a pistol permit to get a long gun. You have to have a background check to get a carry permit for a handgun and you need a carry permit to buy one. Guns in our state must be secured, either locked up in a safe or with a trigger lock. If someone steals an unsecured gun, it is your responsibility and if you have a loaded unsecured gun in your house and if someone gets injured with it, you are in big trouble. If you are unstable or are involved in a domestic problem, your guns can be confiscated. Gun thefts must be reported or you could be big trouble, you cannot even inherit a handgun if you do not have a pistol permit, the list goes on.......................There are plenty of laws on the books here. I do not travel with a gun because I never felt the need, but that is my choice. I would not hesitate to protect my family and property and feel that it is my right and duty to do so by any means available to me.

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And our Golden Retrievers: Wyatt, Waylon and the spirit of Woody 6/1/98-2/23/10 Rest well, my old friend.
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#60 OFFLINE   FedAgent

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Posted 08 December 2008 - 12:09 PM

QUOTE (PigPen @ Dec 8 2008, 01:07 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
a background criminal check, just as you would before being allowed to drive a car. That could be done through reputable gun clubs, etc, not necessarily a government agency, although a government agency should issue the actual license.


Paul, I understand your points, understandably, I do not agree with them. Registration is always to the first step to confiscation, be it a person or a weapon. Big Brother should not be in the scheme of private citizens owning a weapon to protect their life or loved ones life on their property. I do agree that if you plan on carrying a weapon on the street, i.e., a concealed carry, then Joe Average should have a course of instructions and demonstrate that he can use the weapon of his or her choice. A few years ago when I was an instructor at a gun range for a concealed carry facility, I had a woman of, should we say, advanced maturity. She did very well in the written portion of the course, but when it came to firing on the range, she was a total disaster. She had a small Smith and Wesson five shot Chief Special, .38 caliber. Had never fired a gun in her life, prior to that day. The very first shot taken by her, the gun flew out of her hand(s), and hit the wall behind her, very near to where yours truly, was standing. She did not pass the course.

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Secondly, in the USA, there is no criminal check to get a driver's license.
Larry,<br />Corpus Christi, Tejas<br />2007 Lazy Daze Class C and a 2005 Jeep Wrangler toad<br />04 Dodge 3500, Cummins<br /><br /><strong class='bbc'>Only two defining forces have ever offered to die for you: 1. Jesus Christ. 2. The American G.I. One died for your soul, the other for your Freedom. </strong><br /><br /><br /><span style='font-family: Arial'><span style='color: #FF0000'>"We sleep safe in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit</span></span><br /><span style='color: #FF0000'>violence on those who would do us harm." - </span><span style='color: #000000'>George Orwell</span>




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