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Concealed Carry in National Parks


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#1 OFFLINE   ralphl

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Posted 05 December 2008 - 05:14 PM

Here's a press release I received today - good news in my book! I will be able to protect myself and my loved ones if need be. Some common sense from our Government - finally.



NEWS RELEASE
CCRKBA HAILS INTERIOR DEPT. RULING ON CONCEALED CARRY IN NATIONAL PARKS
BELLEVUE, WA – Today’s announcement that the Interior Department has amended its rules and will henceforth allow licensed concealed carry in national parks was hailed as a victory for the Second Amendment by the Citizens Committee for the Right to Keep and Bear Arms.

“No longer will American citizens be required to leave their right of self-defense at the gates of a national park,” said CCRKBA Chairman Alan Gottlieb. “This common-sense change in regulations reflects not only changes in the laws of 48 states, but more importantly the Supreme Court’s ruling in June that upheld the individual right to keep and bear arms that is protected by the Second Amendment.”

Under the rule change, individuals may carry concealed handguns in national parks and wildlife refuges only if they are licensed to carry under the laws of the state in which the park or refuge is located. This new rule does not allow the illegal carrying of any firearm, nor will it allow hunting, target practice or poaching.

“We are delighted that the Interior Department has taken this step,” Gottlieb stated. “This was never an issue of opening parks to hunting or recreational shooting, and the extremist opponents of this measure know it. This has always been about personal protection in areas where law enforcement may be hours away, or not available at all, in an emergency.

“As with the adoption of concealed carry laws in dozens of states over the past several years,” he added, “we are confident that passage of time will prove that all the alarmist rhetoric about poaching and increase danger to families and especially children was deliberately misleading.

“With the nation facing drastic budget cuts,” Gottlieb said, “this rule change comes at the right moment. It recognizes the inability of park officials to provide adequate law enforcement services, particularly in the back country. We are confident that passage of time will prove that this rule change, like the adoption of sensible concealed carry laws in dozens of states over the past 20 years, improves public safety and deters criminal behavior.”
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#2 OFFLINE   tate

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Posted 05 December 2008 - 06:26 PM

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#3 OFFLINE   NL Ten 2000 RR

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Posted 05 December 2008 - 06:30 PM

Yes, it is just common sense that the law be adopted.

Gary

#4 OFFLINE   Bubba

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Posted 05 December 2008 - 06:33 PM

QUOTE (tate @ Dec 5 2008, 06:26 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
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#5 OFFLINE   d3500ram

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Posted 05 December 2008 - 08:57 PM

QUOTE (Artum Snowbird @ Dec 5 2008, 09:44 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Yup,

Your gun deaths from firearms are ten times per capita what we have in Canada...

need I say more...

Are you trying to bait someone to say that it is because you folks have outlawed guns?
I think the real reason your stat might be true is cause you folks have much colder weather:

See link: Cold Weather May Reduce Crime Rate

The extended winter chill may have contributed to a 24 percent drop in violent crime last month as compared to January of 2006. Overall crime has decreased 11 percent.

It's a phenomenon that criminologists can't fully explain, but holds true in statistics throughout the country.

The cold keeps people indoors, which causes less interaction and creates fewer opportunities for criminals.

If you look at offenses through the course of 2006, the warmer the weather, the higher the amount of crime reported.



See link: Cold Weather Decreases Crime

When the temperature drops here in mid-Michigan so do the number of crimes that occur.

Police in both Lansing and East Lansing say the number of calls coming in have decreased as well as the number of actual crimes.

Home invasion is one type of crime that Lansing police see less of during the months of December, January and February. The snow is too deep and the temperature is too cold.

Car larceny also dips down a bit despite all the people who leave their cars running but by early April, crime will be on the rise along with the temperature.

In East Lansing, Captain Juli Liebler says noise disturbance calls and disorderly complaints decrease during the winter months.




#6 OFFLINE   PigPen

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Posted 05 December 2008 - 11:50 PM

QUOTE
Yup,

Your gun deaths from firearms are ten times per capita what we have in Canada...

need I say more...


You have to not put it in Canadian context. Your chance of running into an armed crazy is probably a lot higher in a US national Park than it is in a Canadian one. However your chances of running into a grizzly in a Canadian National Park is much greater.

The way firearm crime has been increasing in Canada over the last few years, I sometimes wonder how long it will be before we have to arm ourselves.

There are some pretty interesting tables in this government web site on the subject

Link

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#7 OFFLINE   Dean

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Posted 06 December 2008 - 03:07 AM

This thread could turn into a real mess, but I think the government did the right thing by allowing firearms for protection in the national parks. Now if carry permits were reciprocal in all states that would be fair as well. I don't know the stats, but I would bet the farm that not much of our gun related crime is carried out by permit holders. I do not want to get into a US vs: Canadian thing, but I am glad that we have the right to defend ourselves in the US.
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#8 OFFLINE   Ramlinwillie

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Posted 06 December 2008 - 06:26 AM

QUOTE (Artum Snowbird @ Dec 5 2008, 09:44 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Yup,

Your gun deaths from firearms are ten times per capita what we have in Canada...

need I say more...


When we were in Canada five years ago and in a park we were warned by Canadians camping next to us that a problem they are having was groups assaulting campers using baseball bats, guess you don’t need a gun to hurt someone, but it sure helps to protect yourself.

#9 OFFLINE   NL Ten 2000 RR

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Posted 06 December 2008 - 06:41 AM

In the US, gun crime is highest where gun laws are the most strict.

NYC residents were recently again allowed to own guns, ownership that had been illegal for decades, per recent US Supreme Court, Second Amendment ruling.

Australians warn Americans not to let our government outlaw guns.

In England, gun crime has increased well over 40%, after guns were outlawed. Law-abiding Brits know this all to well.

Crime-related gun fatalities increase dramatically in HIGH-heat weather. Got high-heat weather up there?

Most gun crimes, (far-and-away most) are committed by minorities around here. Spare me the hate response.., I hate no group.

Criminals fear guns owned by intended victims more than anything else. This according to the criminals themselves.

How high is the Canadian rate of black population? Your premise could be construed as race baiting.

Gun crime is practically nothing in Japan's largely singular (mono) culture.

As an NRA member, I found RalphL's post both very pertinent and relevent to TCers. (As an NRA member, I already knew this good news.)

A retired friend grabbing an at-night 20-minute catnap in a rest area, was awakened by a by door-pounding
yell of "POOOLICE"!

He racked the slide of his .45 auto. To an intended perpetrater, that unmistakable noise is an OH SH**!!!

In that lonely, otherwise empty rest area, that VERY-MOST-LIKELY, life-ending situation ended before it got started.

That POS ran like hell !!!!!!!!

The same thing happened to the same buddy, when just out of the Air Force, he had just moved into a second-floor apartment.
Incredibly, he had just finished cleaning that very same .45 auto, when the apartment door was slammed against and pounded on, accompanied with yelling.
Gun already in hand, he racked the slide. The male perpetrator's feet didn't touch the steps more than twice on that long way down.

Others, possibly Artum(?), have the FREEDOM to use whatever intellect to avert death, while waiting for the police.

I carry, because a cop is too big to carry.

Only local newspapers carry crime-averted-through-gun-ownership/carry articles.

As an NRA member, I assure you, the numbers of crime avoidance incidences by gun ownership/carry is factually staggering.
If you are truely interested in the facts, you can yourself verify what I have stated.

You are my friend, Artum,

Gary





#10 OFFLINE   ralphl

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Posted 06 December 2008 - 08:01 AM

Actually, there is a good deal of reciprocity between states and it's expanding every year. Just common sense - if you have gone through the intense effort to secure a concealed carry permit, and that includes (in New Mexico) range testing, background check (including fingerprinting and approval from your local law enforcement), written exams and proficiency testing, then most other states will honor your concealed carry permit.

Where concealed carry has been approved, crime rates have plunged dramatically. Florida is a perfect example. There has never, to my knowledge, been an incident where a concealed carry permitee has broken a law, but there have been countless incidents where they have protected themselves and others, averting crimes frequently by just showing their firearm without ever having to fire a shot.

Unfortunately concealed carry usually refers to handguns and as such are never allowed anywhere in Canada, although I would venture a guess that you will find a shotgun in the majority of RVs that spend any time boondocking in bear country.

By their very nature, our T/Cs bring us into isolated areas far from the assistance of law enforcement, or oftentimes, even the assistance of friendly, neighboring campers. Isolation means vulnerability. Not having a means of protecting yourself in that situation is foolhardy, and having to check your personal safety at the gate when entering a National Park is unsettling. Relying on the sparse or nonexistant park personnel for your safety makes no sense. This law simply allows me to protect myself and my loved ones (and Artum if he happens to be camping next to me).

Criminals will soon become aware of this, and in essence, it has made our parks a safer place. They will go elsewhere to find gunless victims.

Around here, 911 really reads 1911.
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#11 OFFLINE   narcodog

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Posted 06 December 2008 - 08:15 AM

Shoot, I guess I won't be breaking the Law anymore. ohmy.gif

#12 OFFLINE   tankeryanker

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Posted 06 December 2008 - 08:40 AM

I can't wait for the day our ccwp goes national & would be legal in all states. Now it's just don't ask don't tell.

Look how they are going after that not so smart football player in New York for shooting himself in the leg. If he had a CCWP he would of only looked dumb for shooting himself. Now he's going to go to prison & there goes his high $$$ career.

Any of you seen the 30 min. video of Penn & Teller on Right to Bear Arms? You can find it on U-tube.

#13 OFFLINE   d3500ram

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Posted 06 December 2008 - 09:44 AM

QUOTE (tankeryanker @ Dec 6 2008, 09:40 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
....Any of you seen the 30 min. video of Penn & Teller on Right to Bear Arms? You can find it on U-tube.

I could not find the 30 minute version to which you refer (I believe that You Tube has something like a 10 minute limit, so it would have had to have been in parts.)

There was this :Penn Says: Guns and Freedom.

I have only heard of Penn superficially on the humorous stuff, but he seems to have Libertarian views if i can judge him on this click alone.

#14 OFFLINE   PigPen

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Posted 06 December 2008 - 10:40 AM

I will allow this thread to stay here for awhile but its close to getting moved to the politics section.

Certainly those with permits commit little or no crime. I hate to get into the gun control argument with Americans, becasue the fact of the matter is, you are really comparing apples & oranges. The gun culture in the US has historical roots that were different from those in Canada even though the counties are similar.

The real problem with guns as a whole is that they are a largely impersonal weapon of convenience. In other words, it is a lot easier to shoot someone than it is say to knife them. You don't hear too many cases of kids getting into mommies kitchen knives & stabbing themselves to death, for eg. And a gun make sit easy to kill someone in a moment of passion, which is why they are prominent in murders involving people who know one another.

I am not sure with NL Ten's figures on Britain. Britain has a gun death rate of 0.4 per 100,000, the use is 13.5, about 30 times less. Crime rates in Britain, however, have been steadily rising while those in the US have been decreasing. Without trying to sound racist, this is probably due to a demographic shift in Britain over the last 30 years or so with a much higher proportion of immigration from 3rd world countries taking place. The price of a collapsing empire. The ratio of immigrants to traditional English population has increased there at a far greater rate than it has in the US. Rapid immigration from other cultures leads to ghettoization and subsequent increase in crime. The strict controls there have obviously led to a decrease in fatalities as a result of crime, but it has not contributed to a decrease in crime itself. Police in Britain are still not armed in most cases.

When I was a child in Britain, gun incidents were pretty much unheard of, and no cops were armed. If there was a murder, they pretty much sealed off the Island.

Firearms in Britain


Myself, I prefer not to have firearms in my house, even those I can. That does not mean I don't like playing with guns. I just don't want them in my home, & feel no need to have them there. First of all I feel no threat, and secondly, I am not so sure I would shoot someone anyway, even if they were robbing me. I'd rather deal with the insurance company than try to explain tot he police why I shot someone.

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#15 OFFLINE   jhawk282

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Posted 06 December 2008 - 12:16 PM

Now this could be an interesting topic.Seem to have lots of time for the Forum lately. Can`t wait to hit the road.
I personally like guns, got lots and they are all legal. I would travel with one here in Canada if I was going into wildernes area but will not risk crossing into the US with one.If I was within pepperspray distance of a Grissly,I am not going to feel too brave.Maybe one of you US guys will loan me a 12 Ga.or a nice little .357. When i cross the border. Lol
I will travel cautiously and play safe. I will be more comfortably without one then carrying one illegially.My hocky stick handle makes a great walking stick etc.
I think my chances of getting killed or injured on the highway are just as high as being mugged or worse, at gunpoint.
If I lived in US I would be a member of NRA as well, and exercise my rights to the max.But I don`t and I am Cdn. Because I was born and raised here.Does that make sence?Maybe my whole reply doesn`t make sence.Opinions are like 'you know what" Mine can change with the mood, so today this is it.


#16 OFFLINE   ralphl

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Posted 06 December 2008 - 01:04 PM

Paul,

This is really quite appropriate right where it is, because it is a serious camping issue that needs to be discussed. Even though the topic seems sensitive and could get messy (if we let it), safety needs be a topic of discussion whether we are talking about seat belts, hitch hikers, or weapons.

We have a had a couple of attacks in campgrounds in New Mexico this year. The latest was two or three thugs who asked for help then beat a guy senseless and threatened to kill him so they could take his wallet. Then they bashed in his windshield to steal his cell phone and slashed all his tires so he couldn't follow them or get to civilization to report the crime. Now, I guess these thugs were actually nice criminals, because it would have been easy enough for them to go ahead and kill the camper to keep him from reporting the crime. The victim has recovered, the bad guys have not been caught. Odds are, they'll try it again.

Bottom line, no matter how large or small the numbers are (depending on where you happen to live & camp), the bad guys are still out there and this is a topic worthy of the T/C forum.

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#17 OFFLINE   FedAgent

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Posted 06 December 2008 - 01:11 PM

QUOTE (PigPen @ Dec 6 2008, 12:40 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I will allow this thread to stay here for awhile but its close to getting moved to the politics section.


Paul, that is mighty nice of you, considering that you are once again stirring the pot with posts such as,

"You have to not put it in Canadian context. Your chance of running into an armed crazy is probably a lot higher in a US national Park than it is in a Canadian one. However your chances of running into a grizzly in a Canadian National Park is much greater.

The way firearm crime has been increasing in Canada over the last few years, I sometimes wonder how long it will be before we have to arm ourselves."

Everyone in the US that carries a gun is not an "armed crazy, as you put it. We believe that "we the people" should have the right to bear arms, not only our government. It's a self reliance thing, everyone, at least here in America should have the right to defend themselves until such time as the police or law enforcement can come to your rescue. If you or any or our northern neighbors wish to defend themselves with a teaspoon during an armed robbery or other crime, I wish you well. As for me and my other "armed crazy" people, I think that my life and the lives of my loved ones should not be snuffed out just because the bad guys, both here and in every country in the world, have firearms and do not give a tinker's damn about gun laws.

Larry,<br />Corpus Christi, Tejas<br />2007 Lazy Daze Class C and a 2005 Jeep Wrangler toad<br />04 Dodge 3500, Cummins<br /><br /><strong class='bbc'>Only two defining forces have ever offered to die for you: 1. Jesus Christ. 2. The American G.I. One died for your soul, the other for your Freedom. </strong><br /><br /><br /><span style='font-family: Arial'><span style='color: #FF0000'>"We sleep safe in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit</span></span><br /><span style='color: #FF0000'>violence on those who would do us harm." - </span><span style='color: #000000'>George Orwell</span>

#18 OFFLINE   PigPen

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Posted 06 December 2008 - 01:30 PM

Larry, I am a moderator here, & I have had some of my posts moved into the politics section by other moderators. Basically if one moderator feels it should be moved, it gets moved. I don't overrule them, neither should anyone else. I don't get offended, moderation is a a thankless job. So far I haven't personally felt this one was political enough to move, but I am far more tolerant than some other moderators here. It was mainly a caution to keep politics out of it if you want it to stay in this section.

Ralph is correct, it is an important subject, so lets keep it toned down, myself included.

Ralph, there was an incident here in BC 2 years ago of some tourists being beaten up in a provincial Park, so I know exactly where you are coming from. One reason I carry a very large machete.

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#19 OFFLINE   xnorp

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Posted 06 December 2008 - 02:14 PM

I think it should be moved I am a moderator but don't often over ride other moderators posts so Paul you should move it. Here is my reasoning, if I were a non member and looking at this forum I think I would be able to read this topic and it would sure turn me off when I was looking for a Truck Camper Forum with truck camper information.
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#20 OFFLINE   d3500ram

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Posted 06 December 2008 - 02:29 PM

QUOTE (xnorp @ Dec 6 2008, 03:14 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
... Here is my reasoning, if I were a non member and looking at this forum I think I would be able to read this topic and it would sure turn me off when I was looking for a Truck Camper Forum with truck camper information.
xnorp

To play Devil's advocate... someone might read this and say that this is a real site with real people discussing real possible camping issues (and they may join just for that reason.) You cannot pretend to know what another might think based on your own personal values.




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