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Three men lost on Mount Hood


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#21 OFFLINE   RichConley

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Posted 18 December 2006 - 04:23 PM

It was an injured man that caused the incident.
Not poor planning.

Even the best planned missions fail due to Murphy's law.

The three men were experienced and should have been perfectly capable of completing their hike.
But somehow an injury occurred and the weather bored down on them.

Two years ago a friend was killed on Mt. Rainer by falling rock that hit her on the head.
The protective helmet she wore wasn't enough.

You plan with intelligence, perform to your ability and hope that attitudes expressed by FedAgent do not prevail.

:)

#22 OFFLINE   pslocum

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Posted 18 December 2006 - 05:12 PM

Hmm- I think we should make reasonable efforts to rescue--- Every year people make mistakes here on Mt. Washington, not as high as the Mts out west but many have perished there. It's the sportsmen that end up paying because the FISH & GAME CO's do the rescues,

I don't like the thought that the tree huggers never seem to pay for there own mistakes
( other than there life) but I as an individual would feel far worse if we did not make every effort to help those in need. Just MHO. :)
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#23 OFFLINE   FedAgent

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Posted 18 December 2006 - 05:27 PM

It was an injured man that caused the incident.
Not poor planning.

Even the best planned missions fail due to Murphy's law.

The three men were experienced and should have been perfectly capable of completing their hike.
But somehow an injury occurred and the weather bored down on them.

Two years ago a friend was killed on Mt. Rainer by falling rock that hit her on the head.
The protective helmet she wore wasn't enough.

You plan with intelligence, perform to your ability and hope that attitudes expressed by FedAgent do not prevail.

:)



Well Rich, I hope that attitudes such as I expressed do prevail. This country would be much better off if we could all wean ourselves from the government's nipple. I am sorry your friend died on the mountain, but once again, it is mountain climbing, and it is a dangerous sport, and if you want to participate, you know what can happen. Perhaps it is situation where people who have had to put their life on the line in the military or law enforcement, can relate to better than others. If you were in the military, my question to you is this: how would you like to lead a squad of your soldiers into a hurricane ravaged area to rescue a guy who was warned of the danger, told to evacuate, but did not think the flood water would get as high as they did. You put your squad in harms way to try and save some guy who wanted to watch the water and drink his beer. Now to carry this example a little further, suppose you lose one or two of your squad in the high waters, and they were later found dead. Still feel the same way about the idiot that you were sent to save? Perhaps you are a better person than I am, but I surely would not be happy! People have to be held accountable when they take risks!!
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#24 OFFLINE   Stan

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Posted 18 December 2006 - 06:53 PM

Tim,

I take a little exception to what you say about the Fool's that live in valleys or flood plains. I happen to live in a flood prone area and it seems like we have to fight worsening flood problems every year. Why does it get worse? Because of government funded flood abatement projects that are being completed downstream. This bottlenecks the river and slows the natural drain of the water making the problem where I live worse. So when I have to spend my hard earned dollars to fight the government caused flood problems, I think that the money that is reimbursed to homeowners is well deserved. When my house was built it was nowhere near the flood plain, I have since been rezoned and am required to buy flood insurance now. Besides, if no one lived where I am, some of the richest soil and cropland in the world wouldn't be farmed and there would be alot less food to choose from at the grocery store. The Red River Valley in North Dakota is known as the Breadbasket of the world and if you have ever visited you would know there isn't a hill anywhere. Remember, there are different ways of looking at any situation.

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#25 OFFLINE   RichConley

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Posted 18 December 2006 - 07:07 PM

. . . and if you want to participate, you know what can happen. . .



That's entirely true. We do it every time we drive a vehicle.
The injured party, be they on the side of the road, or a mountain slope. . .should they get the treatment, or not?

:)

#26 OFFLINE   xnorp

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Posted 18 December 2006 - 07:22 PM

And who pays when a ambulance comes to pick that person off the side of the road?
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#27 OFFLINE   Bigf00t

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Posted 18 December 2006 - 08:13 PM

After reading all the opinions stated, the one fact that still remains is that we are still human beings, and every effort should be made to save people in distress regardless of how STUPID or careless they are. Once we forget this, humanity means nothing.
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#28 OFFLINE   FedAgent

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Posted 18 December 2006 - 08:13 PM

That's entirely true. We do it every time we drive a vehicle.
The injured party, be they on the side of the road, or a mountain slope. . .should they get the treatment, or not?

:)


Millions more people drive cars than climb mountains. If the numbers were the same, people would be falling off mountains every minute. Driving is something we have to do in life, we work, we buy food, clothing, go to church and conduct our daily lives. Mountain climbing is not in the same category. Rich, let me site one more example for you here, and then I am done with this conversation, we can agree to disagree. I drive a large motorcycle, it is fast, very fast! The speedometer go to 150 MPH and I have no doubt, none whatsoever, that it could bury the needle. Now I know when I throw my leg over the saddle, that it is a dangerous choice that I have made. I accept those risks, as I have done for more than 45 years of being a cyclist. I have tons of insurance on me and the bike. When some guy cuts me off and I fly through the air and slid on the payment, that was my choice in life. I have insurance so that I will not be a ward of the state should I become a vegetable after the accident. I do not expect you or anyone else to foot the bill for my dangerous life choice. I take full responsibility for my actions. I also have a living will so that no heroic measures will be used to save my life in a case where my life will be dependent on machines and society.
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#29 OFFLINE   RichConley

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Posted 18 December 2006 - 08:31 PM

Well, in general, the "Every man for himself" philosophy is a failure.
And I don't mean to berate the survivalist philosophy either, for they also have their place.

The secret to a powerful society is "cooperation".
One for all and all for one.
It works.

#30 OFFLINE   FedAgent

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Posted 18 December 2006 - 08:51 PM

Well, in general, the "Every man for himself" philosophy is a failure.
And I don't mean to berate the survivalist philosophy either, for they also have their place.

The secret to a powerful society is "cooperation".
One for all and all for one.
It works.


If that was true, I would feel much better, but of course it is not. Cooperation? In the next few years you will have two workers supporting 3 or 4 on social security. You think any 20 some year old kid feels that social security will be around for them, of course not. You have 30 million aliens in this country, do you think they are they are contributing to cooperation of our society, of course not. We have far more people with their hands out and fewer and fewer people who contribute. We are a powerful society because we are, or were, a democracy, the needs of the many out weight the needs of the few. There has never been a socialistic society that has lasted, anywhere or any time.
Larry,<br />Corpus Christi, Tejas<br />2007 Lazy Daze Class C and a 2005 Jeep Wrangler toad<br />04 Dodge 3500, Cummins<br /><br /><strong class='bbc'>Only two defining forces have ever offered to die for you: 1. Jesus Christ. 2. The American G.I. One died for your soul, the other for your Freedom. </strong><br /><br /><br /><span style='font-family: Arial'><span style='color: #FF0000'>"We sleep safe in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit</span></span><br /><span style='color: #FF0000'>violence on those who would do us harm." - </span><span style='color: #000000'>George Orwell</span>

#31 OFFLINE   Collin

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Posted 18 December 2006 - 09:15 PM

I drive a large motorcycle, it is fast, very fast! The speedometer go to 150 MPH and I have no doubt, none whatsoever, that it could bury the needle. Now I know when I throw my leg over the saddle, that it is a dangerous choice that I have made. I accept those risks, as I have done for more than 45 years of being a cyclist. I have tons of insurance on me and the bike. When some guy cuts me off and I fly through the air and slid on the payment, that was my choice in life. I have insurance so that I will not be a ward of the state should I become a vegetable after the accident. I do not expect you or anyone else to foot the bill for my dangerous life choice. I take full responsibility for my actions. I also have a living will so that no heroic measures will be used to save my life in a case where my life will be dependent on machines and society.

Yea, but you have made a choice to ride a machine which has a MUCH higher risk of causing bodily injury vs. when you are driving your truck. Lets say you are in a (God forbid) horrific accident.
Sure, you have covered yourself financially, but you are running the risk of causing mental grief to the the poor soul who has to clean up your mangled carcass from the pavement.
And what if some child sees your accident? Has not your choice potentially affected them too?
On one hand I agree with your point about carless choices, but in reality we ALL make calculated risks every day.
As Rich stated, IF that one hiker didn't have an accident, perhaps we wouldn't be having this conversation right now.

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#32 OFFLINE   PigPen

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Posted 18 December 2006 - 09:28 PM

Dangerous sports always entail some risk. I have to wonder why these 3 picked the middle of winter to hike up a mountain. I don't have too much problem with public money being spent on rescue if they are acting responsibly, but I think this one pushes that definition. I dive, also a high risk sport, but I never do it alone and I always triple check my equipment. If I needed rescue after following every rule I would not feel too guilty. If I need it because I I had a few drinks then dove to 150 feet & got nitrogen narcosis, then its my own stupid fault if I kill myself.

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#33 OFFLINE   RichConley

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Posted 19 December 2006 - 06:32 AM

. . . I have to wonder why these 3 picked the middle of winter to hike up a mountain. . . .If I need it (rescue) because I I had a few drinks then dove to 150 feet & got nitrogen narcosis, then its my own stupid fault if I kill myself.


I met with two friends to hike Mt. St. Helens.
The two friends showed up with ice axes. . .I was in tennis shoes and bare handed.
(quite un-nerving, that was)

Winter or summer. . .makes no difference if one is prepared and experienced.


If you partied and then dived to 150 feet. . .now that would be endangerment,
because I'd have to come after you even though I don't know how to dive,
and you don't know how scary that would be for me.
Some call that stupid, others call it "Moral Obligation".

#34 OFFLINE   TimsToy

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Posted 19 December 2006 - 08:53 AM

He's right, the highest hill is the CITY DUMP!!


Hi Bob in your caae I can understand your point of view but I was talking about is the people that just like the view down by the river and go ahead and build thear house thear knowing that it's prone to being wiped out . This goes on in this part of the country more often then one might think. And guess what when the gov. makes this an emg. daster and puts money up to rebuild guess who is first in line with thear hand out to rebuild in the same damn spot .
Sorry Bob but it pisses me off to see this go on every few years and it does go on every few years because out in this part of the country we don't even have to buy a perment to build a house out in the county
My point is why should the tax payers have to foot the bill to relpace thear {{ river front home ?? }}
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#35 OFFLINE   TimsToy

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Posted 19 December 2006 - 08:53 AM

He's right, the highest hill is the CITY DUMP!!


Hi Bob in your caae I can understand your point of view but I was talking about is the people that just like the view down by the river and go ahead and build thear house thear knowing that it's prone to being wiped out . This goes on in this part of the country more often then one might think. And guess what when the gov. makes this an emg. daster and puts money up to rebuild guess who is first in line with thear hand out to rebuild in the same damn spot .
Sorry Bob but it pisses me off to see this go on every few years and it does go on every few years because out in this part of the country we don't even have to buy a perment to build a house out in the county
My point is why should the tax payers have to foot the bill to relpace thear {{ river front home ?? }}
Tim
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#36 OFFLINE   Wellsdesigned

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Posted 19 December 2006 - 01:35 PM

In our current system, we should expend our efforts to search now (within reason) and ask questions later. But this is a broken system given the technology and connectivity of today’s world.

No one should be restricted from their own lack of better judgment. What should be in place is a system that is as universal as the 911 system in this country. Anyone going into the back country, out to sea, up in an aircraft, cave exploring, or whatever should have a clear understanding that if they check in with someone (local coast guard, take-off air tower, ranger station, sheriff’s station, etc) and show that they possess a working locator beacon that can be received by the local authority’s equipment (or rent one from made available by that station); they will receive the fullest search man and machine can provide. From what these individuals did ahead of time, I believe that had a universal system been in place, they’d be enjoying a tall tale on how the found hiker broke his arm.

If on the other-hand, someone goes on a hike without care to notify and check in with the proper equipment, the best they should hope for is a spotter plane should they not return in time. If they want to be that independent, they need to get themselves out of the trouble they put themselves into.

This would preserve personal choice while drastically reducing the amount of man-power involved in searches. That doesn’t guarantee success, but it could improve the odds greatly. Some may even use the system as a crutch to go further than they are capable of, but that is happening now anyway (as evidenced in this tragedy; assaulting a mountain in late November can never be a good choice).
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#37 OFFLINE   sticky

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Posted 20 December 2006 - 08:03 PM

Fedagent,

These individuals were doing nothing illegal. High risk yes, but they should be entitled to every bit of help that is reasonably available. Why do you get to set the bar on acceptable risk? These guys are thrill seekers and probably and inspiration to some people. In your view they're just fools who knew what they were getting into. They paid their taxes just like you. Just so happens they like this kind of sport, so they get help if they need it. The rescuers are professionals that take their own saftey as paramount. They are in a high risk job and they know that but they are trained to work in harms way sometimes to help others that can't help themselves. I say thank God assistance like this is available in this great country, you never know if you may end up a victim somewhere (hope not).

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#38 OFFLINE   FedAgent

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Posted 21 December 2006 - 08:16 AM

Sticky, I don't feel I have to defend my statements. I heard on the news yesterday that Hood County had spent close to $100,000.00. The story went on to say that if the Federal Government did not pick up the tab (which of course we all know they will), the country would have to cut back on other services later. Also, have been in the rescue business a time or two, any professional will risk his life to try and save someone, especially those that got into a sad situation through no fault of their own. The opinion changes somewhat when you are told that it is some fool who was out in leaky rowboat in the middle of the Gulf of Mexico because he heard the fish were really biting or some hiker started out to walk across a vast wilderness with a bottle of water and a candy bar. These three guys were on a fools errand, no sleeping bags, no heavy clothing, no GPS or emergency locater equipment, totally not prepared. My point has been throughout this posting, that to risk good men and women on this type of mission is wrong and it is also wrong to spend exorbitant amount of tax dollars trying to save people who went far beyond common sense and put themselves in trouble.
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#39 OFFLINE   RichConley

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Posted 21 December 2006 - 03:36 PM

I can't see that far down the road. . . but:

Withholding rescue would probably entail shutting down the forest.
Uncle Sam has deep pockets and the lawyers would love to get into this one.

If you want to debate it. . .the lawyers would love to get a chance at it.

Thanks a lot FedAgent.

#40 OFFLINE   FedAgent

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Posted 21 December 2006 - 05:22 PM

Rich, don't know what you are thanking me for, but in any case, you are welcome, always enjoy an intellectual joust now and then.
:fing32:
Larry,<br />Corpus Christi, Tejas<br />2007 Lazy Daze Class C and a 2005 Jeep Wrangler toad<br />04 Dodge 3500, Cummins<br /><br /><strong class='bbc'>Only two defining forces have ever offered to die for you: 1. Jesus Christ. 2. The American G.I. One died for your soul, the other for your Freedom. </strong><br /><br /><br /><span style='font-family: Arial'><span style='color: #FF0000'>"We sleep safe in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit</span></span><br /><span style='color: #FF0000'>violence on those who would do us harm." - </span><span style='color: #000000'>George Orwell</span>




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