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Three men lost on Mount Hood


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#1 OFFLINE   FedAgent

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Posted 16 December 2006 - 02:38 PM

Perhaps I am insensitive here, but I am having a difficult time understanding the continued search for the 3 young men who tried to climb Mount Hood. I fully understand doing whatever is humanly possible for a soldier or airman lost behind enemy lines, a sailor lost at sea or a person, who though no fault of their own, is in harms way and needs help. This is not not the case here. We have 3 young guys who wanted a thrill and to test themselves. They lost the test. How much time, money, resources do we expend to try and remedy someone's error in judgment. More importantly how many good people have to be put in harms way to save someone, or in this case, three guys who wanted a thrill. Doesn't anyone in this country take total responsibility for their actions anymore? I am sorry they are lost or dead, but that was their choice. Had they decided to go fishing instead of a death defying act on a frozen mountain in foul weather, they more than like would be alive and with their families today. We have becomes a society where there is hardly anyone who is responsible for their own actions anymore.
Larry,<br />Corpus Christi, Tejas<br />2007 Lazy Daze Class C and a 2005 Jeep Wrangler toad<br />04 Dodge 3500, Cummins<br /><br /><strong class='bbc'>Only two defining forces have ever offered to die for you: 1. Jesus Christ. 2. The American G.I. One died for your soul, the other for your Freedom. </strong><br /><br /><br /><span style='font-family: Arial'><span style='color: #FF0000'>"We sleep safe in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit</span></span><br /><span style='color: #FF0000'>violence on those who would do us harm." - </span><span style='color: #000000'>George Orwell</span>

#2 OFFLINE   tankeryanker

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Posted 16 December 2006 - 04:17 PM

Yea I'm not a thrill seeker either. I do believe they are charged for rescue efforts. My wifes DR. Flanagan (retired) in Eugene was interviewed on the news last nite. Him & A buddy were stranded up there for 5 days & survived by digging a snow cave & huddling together for body heat. They had to be rescued also.

#3 OFFLINE   jimd40

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Posted 16 December 2006 - 05:16 PM

I agree with Larry on this.....eeven if they went fishing and fell in tough shit......that my two cents.....jim

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#4 OFFLINE   Snowy Bird

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Posted 16 December 2006 - 05:57 PM

I agree, if it's their own choice to go fishing, mountain climbing, whatever for thrill seeking, they should have to cough up for the search and rescue expenses.
Usually, there are many volunteers involved on their own time and money.
We know a couple of guys that head up search and rescue in the Crows Nest Pass area in southern Alberta. If there is an emergency, they are called in (at any hour, any day) and go out on their own sleds or quads and find the people eventually (dead or alive). They are not reimbursed financially. They work with the RCMP. They continue long after the RCMP have given up hope. Actually they know the terrain and land better than any one else. One of the guys lost a brother a few years ago in an avalanche and he was the one that found his own brother under the snow. Ever since then he has been a member of the rescue squad. We have heard numerous stories about rescuing people stuck in the bush, some heartbreaking and some heart warming.
Many people do not take the outdoors seriously enough or have enough respect for Mother Nature.


#5 OFFLINE   TimsToy

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Posted 16 December 2006 - 07:23 PM

Perhaps I am insensitive here, but I am having a difficult time understanding the continued search for the 3 young men who tried to climb Mount Hood. I fully understand doing whatever is humanly possible for a soldier or airman lost behind enemy lines, a sailor lost at sea or a person, who though no fault of their own, is in harms way and needs help. This is not not the case here. We have 3 young guys who wanted a thrill and to test themselves. They lost the test. How much time, money, resources do we expend to try and remedy someone's error in judgment. More importantly how many good people have to be put in harms way to save someone, or in this case, three guys who wanted a thrill. Doesn't anyone in this country take total responsibility for their actions anymore? I am sorry they are lost or dead, but that was their choice. Had they decided to go fishing instead of a death defying act on a frozen mountain in foul weather, they more than like would be alive and with their families today. We have becomes a society where there is hardly anyone who is responsible for their own actions anymore.


Rite on Larry !!! I'm with you All the way on this one Buddy . Another one that really ticks me off is the Fool's
that get wiped out in a flood plane or velley and get GOV. money to rebuild in the same damn spot so WE can pay
to rebuild them a new house ! Crazy world we live in HUH ??
Tim
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#6 OFFLINE   PigPen

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Posted 16 December 2006 - 07:27 PM

Happens 5 or 6 times a year in Vancouver. Mainly snowboarders going out of bounds. In some ways it is more understandable. When you are standing on a mountainside and can see a city of 2 million below you, you tend not to equate the danger. However, it is well signed and if they go out of bounds it is their fault. They should be liable for the cost of rescue, which is expensive as it usually involves helicopters.

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#7 OFFLINE   Different Drummer

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Posted 17 December 2006 - 10:31 AM

I can understand the previously posted views. I have always
felt that everyone should be accountable for their actions and
choices.
However the wold is full of people making less than perfect
choices in many areas. I read of "boondocking" and off road RV'ing
with our truck campers frequently. So, lets suppose that someone ventures out to
a beautiful remote area in their truck camper with a friend on that fishing trip previously
mentioned. Some disaster befalls them while on the trip. Perhaps they are trapped and seriously
injured inside a rolled over rig. Or perhaps mauled by a bear and very seriously injured.
When they fail to return to their families and loved ones as planned or scheduled,
perhaps we just forget about them. It was their choice!
Just a thought.
Travel safe,
DD

#8 OFFLINE   jimd40

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Posted 17 December 2006 - 11:57 AM

yep life goes on ..its the survival of the fittest......if they have ins cash the check.....merry christmas....lol jim

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#9 OFFLINE   FedAgent

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Posted 17 December 2006 - 11:58 AM

DD, I have no problem whatsoever with helping folks who run into bad luck, not due to their own actions. Floods, hurricanes, tornadoes and the like fall into this category. If you are in a campground and get malled by a bear, sure people should help. But if I decide that the airfare to Hawaii is too high and start swimming from California, I figure that should be my responsibility. As I said in my post "I fully understand doing whatever is humanly possible for a soldier or airman lost behind enemy lines, a sailor lost at sea or a person, who though no fault of their own, is in harms way and needs help." These guys took a risk that was above and beyond "normal" activity, and the total responsibility for their actions should rest squarely on their shoulders. Several people are putting themselves at risk trying to save people who were on the low end of the gene pool.
Larry,<br />Corpus Christi, Tejas<br />2007 Lazy Daze Class C and a 2005 Jeep Wrangler toad<br />04 Dodge 3500, Cummins<br /><br /><strong class='bbc'>Only two defining forces have ever offered to die for you: 1. Jesus Christ. 2. The American G.I. One died for your soul, the other for your Freedom. </strong><br /><br /><br /><span style='font-family: Arial'><span style='color: #FF0000'>"We sleep safe in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit</span></span><br /><span style='color: #FF0000'>violence on those who would do us harm." - </span><span style='color: #000000'>George Orwell</span>

#10 OFFLINE   FedAgent

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Posted 17 December 2006 - 01:42 PM

Here's an idea...Just wait till Spring when the snow has melted, their bodies have thawed out and all the critters are done feasting on their rotting flesh. Then they could send up a rescue team on a sunny day with a picnic lunch and a nice bottle of wine. They could make a day of it. All they would need is a couple of backpacks to stuff the bones into. Hey...Then they could just dump the bones in the trailhead parking lot and let the families sort through and pick out what they want...So let me get this straight. Two guys are out fishing for salmon and their boat gets swamped. Don't call the Coast Guard to rescue them. They knew it could happen. Let them drown. A group of guys are bird hunting and one blows his foot off. So what do you do, get help to chopper him out, let him bleed out, or hell he knew it could happen so just put a bullet in him. Make sure to use his gun so you don't waste your ammo. Come on people think about what you are saying here. If it was a loved one of yours would you not want everything done to save them first and then discuss the stupidity of it later. And thats my nickels worth.....Mike


So Mike, in this perfect world we live in, anybody should be able to do whatever they want, take whatever risks they feel like, all because the government, local, state or federal is there to provide a safety net and pull your bacon out of the fire when the fertilizer hits the fan?

Hog Wash! People are responsible for their actions when they decide to take risks. People die when they try to drive 120 MPH on a motorcycle, too bad. People fall off mountains, too bad. People drink and freeze to death when they are hunting, too bad. We the people, and that is who is footing the bill for the law enforcement and air national guard being used in this search, should not be held responsible for stupidity.
Larry,<br />Corpus Christi, Tejas<br />2007 Lazy Daze Class C and a 2005 Jeep Wrangler toad<br />04 Dodge 3500, Cummins<br /><br /><strong class='bbc'>Only two defining forces have ever offered to die for you: 1. Jesus Christ. 2. The American G.I. One died for your soul, the other for your Freedom. </strong><br /><br /><br /><span style='font-family: Arial'><span style='color: #FF0000'>"We sleep safe in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit</span></span><br /><span style='color: #FF0000'>violence on those who would do us harm." - </span><span style='color: #000000'>George Orwell</span>

#11 OFFLINE   Snowy Bird

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Posted 17 December 2006 - 04:21 PM

Just heard on CNN, I guess they found one guy in a snowcave, dead.


#12 OFFLINE   btggraphix

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Posted 17 December 2006 - 08:15 PM

Not looking to get into a spitting match with you Larry. These men climbed mountains as a sport. Very dangerous yes. From what local news says in Washington State they did everything right. Told people where they were going, left a note on the dashboard of their car and had the proper gear. We have had some real unusual weather in the Pacific North West in the last month. The weather took a severe change from what was predicted and these guys got caught. Are they the ones that are accountable for their actions, of course they are. But I personally just don't think it's right to say the hell with them, let them die. You are entitled to your opinion as I am mine. Perhaps we will meet one day at a rally and hash it out over a cold beer....Mike


I'm with you BlueStilly...the whole point of having a search & rescue system is for, ummmmm...Search & Rescue. The guys on those teams will debate the relative merits and stupidity of the people they try to save, but yet they still go try to save them. It's what they do, it's what their jobs are (in some cases) and it's the living the want to live. It keeps them in top-form and shape. Practicing emergencies is hard to do....nothing like the real thing.

I hardly ever fish but I have been buying fishing licenses for many years to help support the search & rescue system here in Colorado. I hope I don't ever get in an accident, through my own fault or a twist of nature but I hope their are people out there that would help me as opposed to sit and drink coffee in the helicopter hanger and say they should have known better. Last year we had the first avalanche victim in-bounds at a ski area in many many years......the skiers fault or not? Dig for hours or leave him until spring when they are collecting skis?

Should the fire department not come out if it appears a house fire was from stupidly using Christmas lights?

The funny thing is, I agree with FedAgent that perhaps they should pay. I hope they have bought the fishing license or paid the insurance fee that they have in Oregon. Europe does it much better, and without lawsuits too. You either buy backcountry insurance that funds the Search & Rescue, or you have to pay them directly for the search costs. Pretty simple, and it seems to work.
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#13 OFFLINE   blulund

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Posted 17 December 2006 - 08:31 PM

Rite on Larry !!! I'm with you All the way on this one Buddy . Another one that really ticks me off is the Fool's
that get wiped out in a flood plane or velley and get GOV. money to rebuild in the same damn spot so WE can pay
to rebuild them a new house ! Crazy world we live in HUH ??
Tim



Tim,

I take a little exception to what you say about the Fool's that live in valleys or flood plains. I happen to live in a flood prone area and it seems like we have to fight worsening flood problems every year. Why does it get worse? Because of government funded flood abatement projects that are being completed downstream. This bottlenecks the river and slows the natural drain of the water making the problem where I live worse. So when I have to spend my hard earned dollars to fight the government caused flood problems, I think that the money that is reimbursed to homeowners is well deserved. When my house was built it was nowhere near the flood plain, I have since been rezoned and am required to buy flood insurance now. Besides, if no one lived where I am, some of the richest soil and cropland in the world wouldn't be farmed and there would be alot less food to choose from at the grocery store. The Red River Valley in North Dakota is known as the Breadbasket of the world and if you have ever visited you would know there isn't a hill anywhere. Remember, there are different ways of looking at any situation.

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#14 OFFLINE   Oregon_Trail

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Posted 18 December 2006 - 10:36 AM

I am surprised that there is a serious question about making every reasonable effort to rescue someone in peril, whether their predicament is the result of their own negligence or that of others. It is the exception that someone is in risk of their life when negligence, their own or others, is not involved to some degree. Poor planning, improper or poorly maintained equipment, failure to consider weather conditions, refusal to head warnings, inadequate physical conditioning, poor decision making, a moments inattention and hundreds of other issues contribute to these situations. It’s called human error and, while we may argue about the level of stupidity, we are all guilty of it.

I am sure the climbers that are the subject of this discussion were not intent on suicide. We may believe they exhibited extreme stupidity but to equate that with intentional suicide is wrong. One of them is dead and hope fades for the remaining two. This result was not their intention even though their actions led to it.

There seem to be two different concerns raised here. One is rescue and the other is being responsible for ones own actions. To my way of thinking, the person that denies his own negligence, and even expects us to put him back in his original position, is the one refusing to be responsible for his own action. In the case of these climbers it would be as if they were rescued, blamed others for their problems, and then expected us to pay for new clothing, pack frames, crampons and ice axes and a free chopper ride back up on the mountain so they could have another go at it. This kind of individual would also likely lawyer-up and sue anyone they thought might pay them for their own negligence. I don’t equate this kind of person with the one that gets in trouble, admits his own errors, hopes for rescue and is thankful if it comes.

If you truly believe we should refuse rescue efforts for some idiots, then who balances the “stupidity scales” and makes that decision? Will we find some Solomon among our current bureaucrats or maybe set up a “Blue Ribbon” committee. For some members of our society the greatest danger they face is running out of beer while watching a football game on Sunday TV from the comfort of their couch. This kind of individual may feel the height of stupidity is skiing, running an ATV, hunting, fishing or driving a TC off the pavement. And what about the commercial fishermen that risk their lives for money to catch crabs. The world can live without crab cocktails. Or the miner that works deep in the earth. He could opt for a job as greeter at the local Wal-Mart. If our couch potato decides he may find we are all major fools for taking unreasonable risks, or are guilty of the error that put us in peril, and therefore none of us are deserving of rescue.

I for one will bear, without complaint, my share of the costs to rescue people and, if it falls to me personally, I will use every means at my disposal to help someone else. If I error it will be on the side of allowing individuals to engage in dangerous and/or stupid pursuits. The alternative, another level of government control, is not an acceptable alternative to me. I hope that neither my life nor that of others becomes dependent on the decision of one person or a committee as to our relative stupidity for getting in trouble. If it comes to that God help us all.



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#15 OFFLINE   Budster

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Posted 18 December 2006 - 10:44 AM

Very well said Gary :rolleyes:
Thank you :)

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#16 OFFLINE   FedAgent

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Posted 18 December 2006 - 10:52 AM

Gary. I think you missed my point. I have no problem whatsoever in saving or trying to save someone who gets in a bind due to situations beyond their control. I have given example in previous posting, floods, hurricanes, tornadoes, etc. What I have a problem with is people who risk their lives to prove themselves, find out they are not up to the test and them expect society (the collective US) to rescue them. I do not know where you draw the line or who should draw that line, but clearly, some people wish to prove their macho image and push the envelope. If anyone wishes to risk their lives doing daring things, that is fine by me. But when you fail to measure up to the task, do not ask for or expect assistance form the government, sate, federal or local. If a group of people wish to search on their own, at their expense, great, it is what mankind is all about, but the government should not be involved. We have become used to the fact that government is a do everything for everyone all the time and this simply is not what should be the case. I am not a supporter of the concept of cradle to grave care by the government at any level, for everyone for everything no matter what you do or what risks you take to do it. We used to be a country that had people who took responsibility for their actions, that is no longer the case. You take drugs, we got a program. You have nine kids out of wedlock, no problem, we got a program. You didn't provide for yourself or your family, no problem, we got a program. You want to walk across the river into the US and get and want an education, get welfare benefits and have all of your children born in the USA be citizens, no problem, we got you covered. You want to take your leaky, ill equipped fishing boat out in the Gulf of Mexico in the face of an oncoming storm, not a problem, the Coast Guard will spend millions fishing your butt out of the water. Frankly, I am just sick and tired of people being totally reliant on help when they should be the people who are responsible for their own actions and choices. We have become a country full of people who have a safety net for every contingency, thanks to Uncle Sam at one level or the other, and to my way of thinking, this does not produce what used to be a proud, self reliant people. I am sure that in the time of our fathers, the era of " The Greatest Generation", people were not as totally dependent on help from the government.
Larry,<br />Corpus Christi, Tejas<br />2007 Lazy Daze Class C and a 2005 Jeep Wrangler toad<br />04 Dodge 3500, Cummins<br /><br /><strong class='bbc'>Only two defining forces have ever offered to die for you: 1. Jesus Christ. 2. The American G.I. One died for your soul, the other for your Freedom. </strong><br /><br /><br /><span style='font-family: Arial'><span style='color: #FF0000'>"We sleep safe in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit</span></span><br /><span style='color: #FF0000'>violence on those who would do us harm." - </span><span style='color: #000000'>George Orwell</span>

#17 OFFLINE   PR Connection

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Posted 18 December 2006 - 11:43 AM

Gary. I think you missed my point. I have no problem whatsoever in saving or trying to save someone who gets in a bind due to situations beyond their control. I have given example in previous posting, floods, hurricanes, tornadoes, etc. What I have a problem with is people who risk their lives to prove themselves, find out they are not up to the test and them expect society (the collective US) to rescue them. I do not know where you draw the line or who should draw that line, but clearly, some people wish to prove their macho image and push the envelope. If anyone wishes to risk their lives doing daring things, that is fine by me. But when you fail to measure up to the task, do not ask for or expect assistance form the government, sate, federal or local. If a group of people wish to search on their own, at their expense great, it is what mankind is all about, but the government should not be involved.


Larry
You have a point there ....but I do think the Gov should be involved and get you out alive if possible. The catch would be if you were up there and needed assitance when you make it home safely you should have to foot the bill. There is no reason anyone else (tax payers) should have to pay for someone elses stupidity.
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#18 OFFLINE   sluggo

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Posted 18 December 2006 - 03:26 PM

Kudos to Fedagent!

Far to often have I seen where people, for whatever reason, put themselves in a dangerous situation, due to their lack of common sense, stupidity, overconfidence or whatever and expect to be taken care of. On several occasions, for example, there are hurricane warnings posted all over the Gulf of Mexico and a strike likely, people will venture out into the Gulf over 10 miles in a 15-20 foot boat to “enjoy a day of fishing”. Naturally the boat overturns and it is then up to the Coast Guard to put their lives on the line to rescue the “unfortunates.”

I have witnessed first hand offers of evacuation of residents in tidal surge areas prior to a hurricane strike and seen these people adamantly refuse to leave, but when the flood waters are rising in their homes they will call 911 and demand to be evacuated immediately, this happening after the public safety officials have been ordered off of the streets. The local police and fire depts. then have to put their own safety at risk to then get these people out to safety even though they had a chance to leave when it was safer to do so.

I have personally rescued a person who decided to ride his bicycle over a bridge and causeway during a hurricane and then have him complain because I would not deliver him back to his home, even though the ocean had washed over parts of the roadway and in some areas was over five feet in depth and the winds in tis area in excess of 50 mph. This was done just as the rescue units were ordered off of the streets because of the weather conditions.

These were experienced climbers, well aware of the risks they may encounter. True, the weather in that part of the country has been going through some extreme changes, but all the more reason to put a trip like this off! This is after all December, not some mild summer day.

I grieve along with their families and pray that the rest of the party be found alive, but I feel that the rescuers/search team should not have to place their own safety in jeopardy during the height of a winter storm to affect a rescue of persons who should have known better.

This is a great country where we are allowed to make decisions that affect our lives. With that ability we also have a greater responsibility in that the decisions we make should not and will not affect others in any diverse or harmful way.

#19 OFFLINE   btggraphix

btggraphix

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Posted 18 December 2006 - 03:46 PM

Can I be a member of the stupidity level determination department? That sounds like a fun layer of government to be a member of. I'll try to not be prejudiced to anybody. :)

Won't work people. EMS cannot be bogged down in that sort of crap. It may sound like a good idea on the surface, but it won't work when you dig deeper. Similar to Bob's statement about the flood zones. On the surface, yeah, sounds like a good idea to make those fools who rebuild on floodplains pay for it themselves, but it wasn't a floodplain when he bought it. Rivers change courses. Volcanoes form. Earthquakes happen in places they aren't supposed to happen. So even if Bob got out the geology books and maps, and made a good decision to buy a safe house, WE (well, the Army Corps of Engineers perhaps) changed the game on him. Houses out on the Outer Banks might be another story, and would probably be a better example to prove Larry's point...those islands are always shifting and moving no matter what we try to do and they always have. I'm not sure what the solution there is, but let the bureacrats and politicians and there insurance industry lobbyists figure that one out I guess (I don't have the answer) but don't change the EMS system.

Saving lives should not be a question of relative stupidity.

Back in that 'older' generation, you had a lot of people saying 'oh it was just an accident and we'll have to live with it.' Kids fell out of trees and their parents didn't go to jail for child neglect. Kids played with matches and burned down forests, and the parents didn't have ruin their lives to pay for it and weren't sued by everybody who owned the land. People who spilled coffee on themselves didn't blame the restaurant. Seems like a better time right? But then you look at drivers who were always drunk, killed people and never had a hand slapped. Cars with no seat belts even though they knew it would be safer to put them in. Kids subjected to sexual abuse by parents, but that's too unpleasant to talk about or deal with so let's ignore it (go home and work it out yourself.) Dams made with sub-standard materials (knowingly) burst and kill people. Corperations dumping toxic chemicals down the rivers....yeah, they all had lots of personal responsibility! My point here is that the good old days of personal responsibility weren't all that great. It's one thing to argue the merits of making them pay, or sending them to jail if a rescuer gets hurt (like we do with arsonists when a firefighter dies) after the fact....but it should no stop us from trying to save them first.
2006 Lance 1191 - loaded, on 2005 Chevy Kodiak/4500 4WD. Average GVW 18,250 pounds not counting trailer.

#20 OFFLINE   btggraphix

btggraphix

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Posted 18 December 2006 - 03:51 PM

.....but I feel that the rescuers/search team should not have to place their own safety in jeopardy during the height of a winter storm .....


In general they don't. The leaders of the rescue teams always have the option and oppurtunity to call it a day for darkness, that the storm is too bad, that flights conditions are too severe etc. The flight for life helicopter pilots are always allowed to refuse to land for about any reason if they feel the safety of the crew or the chopper is in question. Usually, the people involved in these rescues do this stuff for a living and because they enjoy it.

and PS: I am not disagreeing in any way with people being idiots and getting themselves into trouble. Your tidal person is a perfect example.
2006 Lance 1191 - loaded, on 2005 Chevy Kodiak/4500 4WD. Average GVW 18,250 pounds not counting trailer.




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