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Canada Vs USA


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#1 OFFLINE   jponder

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Posted 07 December 2005 - 06:56 PM

Since the last thread about Teddy got hijacked and since this forum is called the boxing ring, how about us talk honestly about why USA and Canada people are at odds. I'll start

Soft wood tariffs; How in the world can yall expect the USA to let you flood our market with your timber and hurt our domestic Timber industry when your govt lets loggers cut the logs for free to boost employment? Most of canada's timberland is owned by the govt, most of our land is owned by individuals. I am a timberland owner and dont think it is fair. Yall keep it clean and so will I

What yall say?

#2 OFFLINE   PigPen

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Posted 07 December 2005 - 07:04 PM

Ok, that one is easy. The US & Canada signed a free trade deal. That's what it means. Free trade, not free trade when it's to your advantage. The US has consistently lost every court case over this issue. The big loser in this has been the American home builders. It's not Canada's fault that it has superior lumber quality & supply. That is a fact of climate & geography. By the same token the US has the advantage in vegetables & fruit for the the same reasons. It's not an uneven situation as would be the case with Mexico, as the US & Canada have similar standards of living & wage scales which creates a far more even playing field.

The Canadian Government does own most of the timberland, but it is leased out to timber companies. Those companies are responsible for reforestation, etc & are charged cutting fees. The fact of the matter is Canadian timber companies are more efficient. This is due in a large part to geography as well. But that's the way it is. You can't expect a BC Hot house to be able to compete growing tomatoes with a farm in southern california. You either have free trade or you dont'.

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#3 OFFLINE   jponder

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Posted 07 December 2005 - 07:29 PM

Ok, that one is easy. The US & Canada signed a free trade deal. That's what it means. Free trade, not free trade when it's to your advantage. The US has consistently lost every court case over this issue. The big loser in this has been the American home builders. It's not Canada's fault that it has superior lumber quality & supply. That is a fact of climate & geography. By the same token the US has the advantage in vegetables & fruit for the the same reasons. It's not an uneven situation as would be the case with Mexico, as the US & Canada have similar standards of living & wage scales which creates a far more even playing field.

The Canadian Government does own most of the timberland, but it is leased out to timber companies. Those companies are responsible for reforestation, etc & are charged cutting fees. The fact of the matter is Canadian timber companies are more efficient. This is due in a large part to geography as well. But that's the way it is. You can't expect a BC Hot house to be able to compete growing tomatoes with a farm in southern california. You either have free trade or you dont'.


I think you are right that we have lost court cases, I can't understand it. We won the court cases against Argentina and their Govt subsidized honey production. How can we loose to canada when they let loggers "go at it" for nothing? Do you have any links to the decisions? One thing I will challenge is that your lumber is superior. I dont think any lumber on the earth can compare to Pinus Palustris, ie Long leaf pine. Admittedly the timber land down south primarily grows Loblollies and Slash pine but i dont think your timber is superior. We can out grow timber against anyone and in fact i have a 196 acre tract in the middle of the bullseye for rainfall in Louisiana. i think I mentioned rainfall on the phone with you the other day. We have trees in livingston parish Louisiana that they have seperated and sell all around the world, they are Famous!
My family planted 10,000 acres last year and we incurred cost to do so. In the USA a logger still has to pay the govt to cut trees on federal land. How is it fair for yall to let the govt give trees to loggers and slam the market?

#4 OFFLINE   PigPen

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Posted 07 December 2005 - 07:48 PM

To answer your questions on Guatemala & Cuba. IMHO, Guatemala is the most beautiful country in Central America (I've been in all of them). It is now a democracy (or at least as any Central American coutnry is one). It has lake Atitlan which is absolutley spectacular, Antigua & Tikal ,the most impressive Mayan ruins and a lot more. Guatemala city is a hole. Its generally safe there except in the peten (Carribean lowlands).

I have never been to Cuba, I might go this summer (backpacking). I think the American embargo on Cuba, at this point, is silly. Fidel can only possibly be alive for another 10 years max. Now is the time to bury the hatchet & ensure his replacement is America friendly.

Here are some pictures of Guatemala: The first few are :Lake Atitlan, there are also some of Antigua & Tikal.

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#5 OFFLINE   PigPen

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Posted 07 December 2005 - 07:59 PM

You have to pay the govt to cut trees on federal land here as well. I think the dispute is over stumpage rates. I'm not too up on the subject to be quite honest apart from what I read in the papers. I think we have to stop thinking of the US & Canada as 2 different countries economically. They have the most integrated economies in the world. Trade wars are to neither advantage, especially the US, when you consider Canada is the main energy supplier to the US & will be even more so during this century. Canada has oil reserves equivalent to the middle east, it's just more expensive to get at, but that is changing with new technology. I think the common economic threat is China. Unless we get together to face that, both countries are in big trouble. Canada & the US, despite differences have always been co-dependent. For example, Canada has ridden on the back of the US, for defense for years, but on the other hand we acted as a buffer between the US & Soviet Union during the cold war. That 5000 mile undefended border is a testament to the special relationship between the 2 countries.

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#6 OFFLINE   Snowriver1

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Posted 07 December 2005 - 08:24 PM

You have to pay the govt to cut trees on federal land here as well. I think the dispute is over stumpage rates. I'm not too up on the subject to be quite honest apart from what I read in the papers. I think we have to stop thinking of the US & Canada as 2 different countries economically. They have the most integrated economies in the world. Trade wars are to neither advantage, especially the US, when you consider Canada is the main energy supplier to the US & will be even more so during this century. Canada has oil reserves equivalent to the middle east, it's just more expensive to get at, but that is changing with new technology. I think the common economic threat is China. Unless we get together to face that, both countries are in big trouble. Canada & the US, despite differences have always been co-dependent. For example, Canada has ridden on the back of the US, for defense for years, but on the other hand we acted as a buffer between the US & Soviet Union during the cold war. That 5000 mile undefended border is a testament to the special relationship between the 2 countries.

Dear Paul,
I think you are right on about China, they are building at a ferocious rate. my wife and daughters toured there this fall and came back in awe of the rebuilding. They are developing an appetite for raw materials and are affecting prices on everything around the world. Almost anything you can think of is being manufactured there with cheap labor being the draw. And no, you will not see any SNOWLIVER Or RANCE campers coming from there in the near future.

Bob
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#7 OFFLINE   jponder

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Posted 07 December 2005 - 08:26 PM

Awesome photos paul

back to the Timber Deal. i know lots of Beef farmers who gave it up and planted their fields in trees, I know lots of dairy farmer who gave it up and planted their pastures in pine trees. Dont get me wrong we like free trade and in the southeast we can grow about 150$/acre in timber trees. You guys would be lucky if you can do 1/10th of that. the great northwest cant even come close to what we can produce in the south. there might be places on earth that can compete with us but they aint in North America!

So far as logging being more efficient.....that is ludicrous, we dont have mountains! We never have to log with cables and choppers like you guys have to

the difference here is WE OWN THE LAND and up there the GOVT OWNS THE LAND! The soft woods tarriffs will never go away. You got too many old dairy farmers who planted trees to help their grandkids

You got lots of inferior pines and trees that might be marginal and it might take 300 years to replant and make them grow again. here in the south we can turn that deal in 30 years compared to yalls 300 years. what yall do have is mass land. Virgin forest, we had that years ago and they cut the cypress swamps.

I am just trying to give you a perspective of how we view it, the idea that yall are replating is kinda funny, I mean you should but your great grandkids-greatgrandkids will never see it. The USDA is never going to let yall flood the usa market with those 800 year old trees- and thats a good thing :huh:

#8 OFFLINE   Snowriver1

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Posted 07 December 2005 - 08:32 PM

Awesome photos paul

back to the Timber Deal. i know lots of Beef farmers who gave it up and planted their fields in trees, I know lots of dairy farmer who gave it up and planted their pastures in pine trees. Dont get me wrong we like free trade and in the southeast we can grow about 150$/acre in timber trees. You guys would be lucky if you can do 1/10th of that. the great northwest cant even come close to what we can produce in the south. there might be places on earth that can compete with us but they aint in North America!

So far as logging being more efficient.....that is ludicrous, we dont have mountains! We never have to log with cables and choppers like you guys have to

the difference here is WE OWN THE LAND and up there the GOVT OWNS THE LAND! The soft woods tarriffs will never go away. You got too many old dairy farmers who planted trees to help their grandkids

You got lots of inferior pines and trees that might be marginal and it might take 300 years to replant and make them grow again. here in the south we can turn that deal in 30 years compared to yalls 300 years. what yall do have is mass land. Virgin forest, we had that years ago and they cut the cypress swamps.

I am just trying to give you a perspective of how we view it, the idea that yall are replating is kinda funny, I mean you should but your great grandkids-greatgrandkids will never see it. The USDA is never going to let yall flood the usa market with those 800 year old trees- and thats a good thing :huh:

Boy I sure hope the US government doesn't twig on that I'm not selling campers into the US. I'm actually smuggling 800 year old softwood lumber across the line duty free.

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#9 OFFLINE   PigPen

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Posted 07 December 2005 - 08:34 PM

If the pine beetle damage continues it might all be a moot point. I couldn't believe all the brown trees when I went through the interior of BC this summer. As far as land ownwership is concerned, I think that is more the case in the US south. In the Pacific NW, I think its a similar situation as in Canada. I think its more a function of land vs population density. No one has ever owned the mountainsides where the timber is, so its government land by default.

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#10 OFFLINE   jponder

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Posted 07 December 2005 - 08:40 PM

It takes me so long to respond i am always a couple of post behind, last i looked stumpage in the USA was
about
Pine saw timber 35$/ton
hardwoodsaw timber 22$/ton
pine chipnsaw 17$/ton
Pine pulpwood 7$/ton
hardwood pulp 5$/ton
Heck i cant remember that might have been MBF prices

that was pre katrina, they are burning saw logs now in south louisiana

i talked to one of our foresters the other day and he said the state forester in Louisiana told him they had 2 years of timber harvest on the ground. meaning the same thing we would havest in Louisiana in two years was layingon the ground

#11 OFFLINE   PigPen

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Posted 07 December 2005 - 08:43 PM

The pine beetle damage may be due to global warming. We no longer get the 3 week stretches of severe low temps needed to control them. We may have to start replanting with species of trees more suited in the US south than the Canadian north.

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#12 OFFLINE   Snowriver1

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Posted 07 December 2005 - 08:50 PM

Not meaning to stray too far off course, but after checking with camper manufacturers in the U.S I find that liability insurance purchased in Canada for units being shipped to the U.S is ten times more expensive to Canadian manufacturers as to American companies. We both purchase our insirance from Zurich. this adds about $500.00 Canadian dollars to each camper shipped to the U.S. of course these higher costs are passed on to consumers in the U.S. Who's keeping an eye on these insurance people. They posted record profits two years after 9-11. Just wanted to bitch at someone.

P.S. I also found it is not possible for a Canadian company to buy liability insurance in the U.S. from a U.S. insurance broker.

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#13 OFFLINE   jponder

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Posted 07 December 2005 - 08:56 PM

The pine beetle damage may be due to global warming. We no longer get the 3 week stretches of severe low temps needed to control them. We may have to start replanting with species of trees more suited in the US south than the Canadian north.

If it was only temp, I dont think there would be a pine tree in louisiana. The old long leaf forest that existed was resistant to them and healthy trees seem to resist them. Weak old trees succumb more easily and yall have alot of them up there, we have some here. We took the unusual step of planting 400 acres of Long leaf in the last 5 years. Our foresters had a fit, they are old school paper mill foresters and want to grow pulp wood for the old paper mills they were raised on.

I like it becuase i get to burn young stand of timber, yes we actually get to burn land down in the south and it is real cool when it goes off! KABOOM when ya got lots of fuel........course we dont get conditions like yall..... it would be skary to strike the match where yall live, Might lose a state!

#14 OFFLINE   PigPen

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Posted 07 December 2005 - 08:58 PM

A big part of the problem is replacement of logged land with genetically identical trees. Look at what inbreeding did to the British royal family.

On the insurance issue, Bob, just goes to show its never a level playing field when it comes to cross border issues. Either way.

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#15 OFFLINE   jponder

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Posted 07 December 2005 - 09:09 PM

A big part of the problem is replacement of logged land with genetically identical trees. Look at what inbreeding did to the British royal family.

On the insurance issue, Bob, just goes to show its never a level playing field when it comes to cross border issues. Either way.

Paul, Noone plants clones. it just takes so extremely long for yall to grow a tree. I planted 160 acres of 2cd gen improved loblollies on my place in 2001 and i have 12 foot tall trees. I told a NW forester that i would be looking for my first pulp wood check after 10 years and he was stunned. For yall to clear a mountain top and regrow it takes hundreds of years..... it takes us 30 years

When it comes to growing trees canada and the PNW are just left in the dust by the south USA

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Posted 07 December 2005 - 09:25 PM

You two can correct me if I'm wrong, but the two biggest logging companies in Canada are Weyerhauser and Crown Zellerback both American companies. so it seems the U.S has a problem with American companies being subsidized by the Canadian government cutting trees for Americans. I can see where a few people could think this was unfair. But what the hell do I know, I didn't even know there were trees south of Montana.

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#17 OFFLINE   PigPen

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Posted 07 December 2005 - 09:56 PM

Never considered that.

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#18 OFFLINE   Kodiak K99

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Posted 08 December 2005 - 04:03 AM

jponder, about the growing season. You can grow trees in 30 years. Can that wood contain the same structural strength as a CDN tree with a longer growth time. The CDN tree has a tighter growth ring which in turn makes it stronger. My brother works for a U.S. company in Northern B.C. that ships 80% of the wood produced to the U.S. There is a lot of demand for this wood for it's superior strength. We have a U.S. company in the heart of B.C. because they recognize that there is quality material in Canada. They ship the wood to the U.S. that is higher rated than the 10 to15% that we in Canada get to use.
At one time, Japan was taking the top 5% that was totally clear with no knots. They recut the lumber into smaller sizing which was being used for modular building. I don't know if Japan is still getting the Cdn wood but China is readily purchasing the lumber at alarming rates. Hmmm, that U.S. company is having no problem with what Canada can produce and make $ off it at the same time. I'll point out again that this is a U.S. company cutting down Canadian lumber. :huh:
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#19 OFFLINE   jponder

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Posted 08 December 2005 - 09:09 AM

jponder, about the growing season. You can grow trees in 30 years. Can that wood contain the same structural strength as a CDN tree with a longer growth time. The CDN tree has a tighter growth ring which in turn makes it stronger. My brother works for a U.S. company in Northern B.C. that ships 80% of the wood produced to the U.S. There is a lot of demand for this wood for it's superior strength. We have a U.S. company in the heart of B.C. because they recognize that there is quality material in Canada. They ship the wood to the U.S. that is higher rated than the 10 to15% that we in Canada get to use.
At one time, Japan was taking the top 5% that was totally clear with no knots. They recut the lumber into smaller sizing which was being used for modular building. I don't know if Japan is still getting the Cdn wood but China is readily purchasing the lumber at alarming rates. Hmmm, that U.S. company is having no problem with what Canada can produce and make $ off it at the same time. I'll point out again that this is a U.S. company cutting down Canadian lumber. :huh:


We can grow them either way If you planted 2cd gen improved loblollies at900/acre and then just left them alone You would get a very dense tree. If you wanted to run a shorter rotation and thin them a couple of times then the tree would grow faster and less dense. We have 300 year old trees mind you. I dont think there is a finer tree on the planet than a long leaf pine, resistant to fire, beetles,rust. forms poles at 90% rate.
My children are planting a 83 acre tract this winter with long leaf pines, Long term proposition. People in the southeast manage there land and want it to be sustainable and be able to pass it to their children and them their children. If you polled Timberland owners and asked what the greatest threat to them was it wouldnt be beetles or weather damage, It would be Canada.

Lets just pray that the soft woods tariffs stay in place, good to hear that China is buying lots of timber from yall. We have plenty of our own timber, that is one thing we dont need to import

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Posted 08 December 2005 - 03:29 PM

I don't know much about trees and even less about US-Canadian politics. BUT I do have a house, made of wood, in Colorado (Northern Mexico) that I would trade even steven for one in the BC. Okanagan Valley area. Any takers? Eh! :angry:

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