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#41 OFFLINE   PigPen

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Posted 25 February 2012 - 03:16 PM

Well then, let's all move in with Uncle Hugo!


I wonder if they have rv parks. or communes

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#42 OFFLINE   Rick1985

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Posted 25 February 2012 - 04:44 PM

And yet nobody has mentioned the fact that right here in the USA we have more oil underground than Iran, Iraq, and Saudi Arabia all put together. We could be totally self supplying but the politicians and greenie weenies will not allow it. The pol's make way too much off of the imports.

#43 OFFLINE   FedAgent

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Posted 25 February 2012 - 08:12 PM

I wonder if they have rv parks. or communes


My suspicion would be gulags.
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#44 OFFLINE   mtnkwby

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Posted 25 February 2012 - 09:07 PM

And yet nobody has mentioned the fact that right here in the USA we have more oil underground than Iran, Iraq, and Saudi Arabia all put together. We could be totally self supplying but the politicians and greenie weenies will not allow it. The pol's make way too much off of the imports.


Or we are saving our oil till theres runs out! :happy0068:

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#45 OFFLINE   Dan Quinn

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Posted 25 February 2012 - 11:54 PM

getting back on topic witch was what the thread starter asked to do ..Diesal hit $3.99 a gal today and unleaded was $3.72 witch was a 35 cent a gal raise in 3 days and at this rate we will not be going on any trips except our Family reunion in July....the rest of the camping will be 4 miles from our house at the campground we took a membership up at 4 years agoand we can leave camper there all season so there wont be any towing fees and for a xtra 100.00 we store it for the winter..so it will work out the best for us this year

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#46 OFFLINE   PigPen

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Posted 26 February 2012 - 08:31 AM

Oil is no longer a national commodity, it is controlled by multinationals who have no allegiance to any particular nation. If the US has huge oil reserves that are not being exploited it is because it is too expensive to get out and make an easy profit. Even if they did it would go onto the world market and most would likely end up in China, not be used to lower domestic fuel prices. In fact it may even escalate them and more supply create more demand. The only way to ensure lower domestic prices would be to nationalize oil like Mexico has done, or Venezuela has done and subsidize the domestic market. In mexico for example the only place you can buy fuel is at government controlled Pemex stations. In their case its probably not bad thing as most people would not be able to afford it otherwise, and they do have vast reserves. However, that brings up a whole slew of other issues.

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#47 OFFLINE   FedAgent

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Posted 26 February 2012 - 09:23 AM

Assuming that the price of fuel is not near it's upper cost peak yet and continuing with the assumptions, most likely will not return to past level prices anytime soon, if ever, what will happen to the recreational vehicle industry? When the last "gas price crisis" happened, several manufacturers, suppliers and RV related businesses went belly up, and that price increase and future predictions are not as gloomy as the current situation. Fuel prices of five or six bucks a gallon, will greatly impact the desire of most to curtail or end travel with an RV. Hard to just to justify spending the original price of any RV and then add in the cost of fuel for a couple of weeks of a vacation or family road trip.

I understand that shorter trips near home is better than nothing, but Americans have always been a restless group who love to explore what is over the next hill. I have been in 49 of our 50 states and I think, like most people, have totally enjoyed seeing and exploring the areas that I have visited. Some I would not care to visit again and some are worth several return visits. I think our next generation will be short changed by what will happen to the RV industry and tourist areas.
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#48 OFFLINE   atchafalaya_man

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Posted 26 February 2012 - 09:32 AM

....If the US has huge oil reserves that are not being exploited it is because it is too expensive to get out and make an easy profit.....


Right you are, Paul.

In the poker-game of oil production, Mother nature dealt most of the world a bad hand, and dealt the Middle-East all Aces.

But first, understand that there is no such thing as a 'lake', 'cave', 'river', 'cavern', or 'CHAMBER' in the ground that holds oil or gas. Oil or gas is trapped in pourous rock, much as water is trapped in a sponge. But, there are better and worse types of 'sponges'.

The Middle-East got the good sponge! It has "Fractured Limestone" that Mother Nature gave them (VERY poreous and pre-fractured/fracked if you wish). Generally shallow, their oil comes out of the ground like water from a broken fire hydrant. Picture their oil rocks like fluffy beach sand.

The USA and others:
Our oil is in Sandstone, much like that found in the desert and is somewhat like the concrete or asphalt in your driveway. Water/Oil will still seep into it too, but the smaller openings in the sandstone take much more effort, different methods and expense to produce.

Shale:
The latest-greatest areas where oil/gas has been found is in 'Marine Shales'. Marine Shale has such small pores between the grains, nothing comes out very easily. Picture your old chalkboard at school. The old fashioned chalboards were nothing but a big sheet of SHALE!

You cleaned it using a sponge and bucket of water. The board got wet, and soaked up a tiny bit of the water (oil). Shale has tighter pores than sandstone or fractured Limestone.

But, take a hammer to the chalkboard, and crack it all over and we now have a bunch of small cracks connecting the entire board. Liquids or gasses can seep through the new formed fractures. We have just Fracked the chalkboard.

Take away fracking and you have a wet chalkboard or a wet driveway with no hope of getting a drop from it. :)


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Posted 26 February 2012 - 09:39 AM

well, i believe there will still be some like myself who will go but curtail the spending elsewhere. i dont really think its the price of fuel thats the trouble....its how fast it increased in the last few years. if it rose on the inflation "slope" as say....the price of bread, it would not be as big of a deal. i mean....are we all talking about the price of bread as compared to decades ago? nope. at least wages somewhat kept up with that price. however fuel jumped up so fast that wages have in no way caught up.
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#50 OFFLINE   PigPen

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Posted 27 February 2012 - 07:51 AM

Interesting article in Today Globe & Mail (Canada's main business newspaper) on the subject. I thought the one comment in response to it was amusing, he may have a point. I would be interested to hear atchafalaya's take on it, since I know he is the industry.

Drilling alone won't bring cheap oil

Here is the amusing comment:

The number one reason for the current price of oil is market speculation. Allowing buyers to purchase oil on spot markets without taking possession adds to the reserve equation - the amount of oil available if all the taps were turned off.
By allowing oil to be purchased without forcing the buyers to own storage facilities causes the price to be speculated.
All Congress has to do is force oil buyers to take possession of any oil purchased before being able to resell it and the high price would disappear almost overnight.

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#51 OFFLINE   RedneckExpress

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Posted 27 February 2012 - 10:04 AM

Interesting article in Today Globe & Mail (Canada's main business newspaper) on the subject. I thought the one comment in response to it was amusing, he may have a point. I would be interested to hear atchafalaya's take on it, since I know he is the industry.

Drilling alone won't bring cheap oil

Here is the amusing comment:

The number one reason for the current price of oil is market speculation. Allowing buyers to purchase oil on spot markets without taking possession adds to the reserve equation - the amount of oil available if all the taps were turned off.
By allowing oil to be purchased without forcing the buyers to own storage facilities causes the price to be speculated.
All Congress has to do is force oil buyers to take possession of any oil purchased before being able to resell it and the high price would disappear almost overnight.


I've been saying this for years and originally there was a law in place that required that, it was removed during the early 90s around the time home loans were opened up.

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#52 OFFLINE   PigPen

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Posted 27 February 2012 - 11:27 AM

Really, was there? It brings up visions of people building oil tanker storage in their basements.

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#53 OFFLINE   RedneckExpress

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Posted 27 February 2012 - 11:37 AM

Really, was there? It brings up visions of people building oil tanker storage in their basements.


Yeah, as you'll recall, the fuel price madness didn't start until the late 90s, early 2000s, before that there was limits on how much you could buy in if you did not take delivery. The main purpose of the futures market was for big fuel consumers or sellers (Like Pilot, for example) to prepurchase large quantities of fuel for their operations. Some of the big original users of it was the Railroads, ocean going shipping companies, and airlines.

Then the regulations were relaxed and a lot of people who were never planning to actually use a drop of that fuel started hedging on it for a quick buck and now we have emotionally controlled fuel prices instead of reality controlled fuel prices.

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#54 OFFLINE   PigPen

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Posted 27 February 2012 - 02:48 PM

So you are saying much of the problem is caused by speculators. I tend to agree.

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#55 OFFLINE   atchafalaya_man

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Posted 27 February 2012 - 03:41 PM

Some more reasons for chatter among the crew.

Volatility in the Middle East. Since crude oil prices make up about 70% of the price of a gallon of gas, even tiny disruptions to supply can cause a spike in prices when consumers fill their gas tanks. Speculators don’t help this situation, but there are other factors too.

Growing demand from Asia.
Oil companies that have increased their exports overseas essentially are depleting the U.S. supply and in doing so it's creating an artificially higher price for American consumers.

Gasoline formulation requirements. The summer blend has additional additives that add to the cost of producing the product.

An improving economy. More Americans will have the means--and confidence--to consume more goods and services such as gasoline.

Summer. Warmer weather and peak driving season usually coincide as Americans take vacations and hit the road. Coupled with an improving economy, more drivers should be on the road this summer, which will boost demand, and ultimately prices.

Taxes. If you take a look around the country, gas prices aren't uniform. A lot of the variation has to do with supply lines and transport, but a chunk of it has to do with varying state and local taxes. As government budgets have been strapped in the wake of the recession, some states and cities have looked to gasoline taxes.


#56 OFFLINE   Skyhammer

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Posted 27 February 2012 - 04:37 PM

Speculation works both ways, I don't recall anyone complaining about the speculators a few years ago when oil dropped from $140 to $70/barrel.
Speculation allows large fuel users to lock in large amounts of fuel at a set price for future use, this allows a company some measure of certainty in a volitale market.
Just like taxes, if a company does not know what their tax liability is going to be going forward, they won't be willing to take an unquantified risk by expanding their business and hireing more workers. Which is the situation we are in now. Companies are being hit with many new taxes that are impossible to plan for.
Dodd-Frank and the Health Care Law are prime examples.
Markets hate uncertainty.

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Posted 27 February 2012 - 05:26 PM

Speculation works both ways, I don't recall anyone complaining about the speculators a few years ago when oil dropped from $140 to $70/barrel.
Speculation allows large fuel users to lock in large amounts of fuel at a set price for future use, this allows a company some measure of certainty in a volitale market.
Just like taxes, if a company does not know what their tax liability is going to be going forward, they won't be willing to take an unquantified risk by expanding their business and hireing more workers. Which is the situation we are in now. Companies are being hit with many new taxes that are impossible to plan for.
Dodd-Frank and the Health Care Law are prime examples.
Markets hate uncertainty.


The problem is that with the regulations uncapped, there can be infinitely more shares of futures than there is actually ever going to be in real oil, in short it's a paper game, which causes a false price and unnatural swings in the price per barrel. No one complained when those gambling on our future got screwed because it was kind of a collective "Hope it bit ya where it's going to leave a mark".

Before the market was uncapped and allow people to simply buy and sell paper oil like baseball cards, there was ups and downs in the futures market, but the extremes were far far less and fuel settled at an average vs it's current bubble-popping pattern that cripples the US economy each time.

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#58 OFFLINE   PigPen

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Posted 28 February 2012 - 06:04 AM

You see something similar happening in currency markets as well. It is interesting to watch the pattern of the relationship of the US & Canadian dollar. Because we are the worlds 2 largest trading partners, both currencies tend to rise & fall in tandem against other world currencies. They rise & fall against each other with the price of oil & the Dow Jones index. Oil goes up, the Canadian dollar goes up, it also goes up with the Dow.

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#59 OFFLINE   atchafalaya_man

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Posted 28 February 2012 - 07:00 AM

Most people don't realize there's 'Future's Trading' in currency and financial paper, just like any other thing that goes up or down in value.

It's just another of the games at the Wall Street Casino and all of them there will take one's money as fast at Vegas.


#60 OFFLINE   PigPen

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Posted 28 February 2012 - 08:17 AM

If you look at this graph of the US & Canadian dollar, you can see it would be almost impossible not to make money if you had a large enough amount to speculate. They see saw so much, its only timing, Buy in at almost any rate, then sell when it changes a penny.

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