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A question for fedagent


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#21 OFFLINE   jimd40

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Posted 31 December 2009 - 06:38 AM

As politically incorrect as profiling is, I think in the case of airlines it may not be a bad idea. From what I understand with El Al, it is not so much racial profiling, as observing body language in response to certain questions. I don't think anyone could object to that. Apparently Amsterdam is installing body scanners for use with all US bound flights.



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#22 OFFLINE   andyo

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Posted 01 January 2010 - 02:43 PM

I totally agree that profiling is the way to go in this issue. The big problem here in the UK is that the human rights lobby, encouraged by other liberal european countries, always cry foul of such measures and usually win the day. As an example, British Transport Police who cover the railway system were accused of discriminating against asian muslims when they ran an anti terrorist 'stop and search' initiative. Who else would they target, based on current intelligence? What we need here is a strong government willing to resist the criticism of the European Community and act to protect our country as they see fit. One encouraging sign however is that apparently, Gordon Brown our Prime Minister is looking to urgently implement body scanners at all of our airports.

#23 OFFLINE   ralphl

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Posted 02 January 2010 - 09:15 AM

As politically incorrect as profiling is, I think in the case of airlines it may not be a bad idea. From what I understand with El Al, it is not so much racial profiling, as observing body language in response to certain questions. I don't think anyone could object to that. Apparently Amsterdam is installing body scanners for use with all US bound flights.


I'd be all for the El Al approach. Why bother Grannies with their knitting needles? Look closely at the "types" that have been behind recent incidents.

The fly in that ointment is that the El Al screeners have had intensive training and were pretty intelligent to begin with. I fly only when I have to, and can tell you the majority of the frontline TSA screeners would be about the level of most Burger King employees. They could not be trained, no way - no how, to do what the El Al screeners do. Nor could that be done with the sheer numbers of people that fly in the US. Think about how few people have to be screened by El Al compared to here. It's sad, but body screeners are going to be necessary, and elimination of carry ons would certainly speed the boarding process.
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#24 OFFLINE   ralphl

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Posted 02 January 2010 - 09:18 AM

The big problem here in the UK is that the human rights lobby, encouraged by other liberal european countries, always cry foul of such measures and usually win the day. As an example, British Transport Police who cover the railway system were accused of discriminating against asian muslims when they ran an anti terrorist 'stop and search' initiative. Who else would they target, based on current intelligence? What we need here is a strong government willing to resist the criticism of the European Community and act to protect our country as they see fit. One encouraging sign however is that apparently, Gordon Brown our Prime Minister is looking to urgently implement body scanners at all of our airports.


Human rights lobby doesn't like racial profiling? Wonder how they are going to feel about body scanners? Let's all live and let live - take our chances - don't hurt anybody's feelings.
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#25 OFFLINE   Ric

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Posted 02 January 2010 - 09:32 AM

A new year and here we go with politics again.
Not sure why you feel a need to start these threads Paul.
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#26 OFFLINE   FedAgent

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Posted 02 January 2010 - 11:10 AM

A new year and here we go with politics again.
Not sure why you feel a need to start these threads Paul.



Geeze, I have to go get my reading glasses checked! I have not read one posting here that dealt with politics in the least. What I have been reading is about safety when you fly. If you found a posting that said either the Democrats or the Republicans are or were responsible for where we are in airline safety, please point it out to us. Personally, I want to die in my bed at some ripe old age or out walking in the forest, not on an airplane because some wacko has a grudge against America, not matter if his homeland or his religion thinks this is the may make yourself a martyr or hero.
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#27 OFFLINE   FedAgent

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Posted 02 January 2010 - 11:32 AM

I'd be all for the El Al approach. Why bother Grannies with their knitting needles? Look closely at the "types" that have been behind recent incidents.

The fly in that ointment is that the El Al screener have had intensive training and were pretty intelligent to begin with. I fly only when I have to, and can tell you the majority of the frontline TSA screeners would be about the level of most Burger King employees. They could not be trained, no way - no how, to do what the El Al screeners do. Nor could that be done with the sheer numbers of people that fly in the US. Think about how few people have to be screened by El Al compared to here. It's sad, but body screeners are going to be necessary, and elimination of carry ons would certainly speed the boarding process.


Well said Ralph. We have to remember that prior to TSA, all of the security and security screeners were paid for and were the employees of the airline that you were flying. Some were just about OK, others were substandard. When TSA was initiated, most of the core of the new TSA employees were converted from their airline jobs to their new federal jobs. Whatever baggage they had in their prior job, they brought with them to their new position. You have to remember, these are not highly paid jobs, and those, you may not attract the very best. I am not putting them down in anyway, but the facts speak for themselves. Tests have proven that their are holes in the security process. If top of the line people are needed at airport check areas, somebody, i.e., the government, is going to have to up the pay scales and make the job attractive. If you continue to pay almost Burger King wages, one could expect that you are going to get Burger King type of people. The TSA folks need to be college educated and trained for months prior to being on the line.
Larry,<br />Corpus Christi, Tejas<br />2007 Lazy Daze Class C and a 2005 Jeep Wrangler toad<br />04 Dodge 3500, Cummins<br /><br /><strong class='bbc'>Only two defining forces have ever offered to die for you: 1. Jesus Christ. 2. The American G.I. One died for your soul, the other for your Freedom. </strong><br /><br /><br /><span style='font-family: Arial'><span style='color: #FF0000'>"We sleep safe in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit</span></span><br /><span style='color: #FF0000'>violence on those who would do us harm." - </span><span style='color: #000000'>George Orwell</span>

#28 OFFLINE   RichConley

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Posted 02 January 2010 - 04:13 PM

Try this forum. . .very much in line with many folks want:
http://www.politicalforum.com/

#29 OFFLINE   FedAgent

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Posted 02 January 2010 - 05:10 PM

Try this forum. . .very much in line with many folks want:
http://www.politicalforum.com/


I just re-read all 27 post so far on this thread. I did not see one little bit about politics! So what is the point of posting a link to a political site??? Man, if we can not even discuss things like airline safety without someone reading between the lines, for whatever reason, we are developing into a pretty closed knit club here. I guess the only things we can talk about safely here is the favorite ways to cook chicken and what water pump is best to buy as a replacement.
Larry,<br />Corpus Christi, Tejas<br />2007 Lazy Daze Class C and a 2005 Jeep Wrangler toad<br />04 Dodge 3500, Cummins<br /><br /><strong class='bbc'>Only two defining forces have ever offered to die for you: 1. Jesus Christ. 2. The American G.I. One died for your soul, the other for your Freedom. </strong><br /><br /><br /><span style='font-family: Arial'><span style='color: #FF0000'>"We sleep safe in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit</span></span><br /><span style='color: #FF0000'>violence on those who would do us harm." - </span><span style='color: #000000'>George Orwell</span>

#30 OFFLINE   ralphl

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Posted 02 January 2010 - 05:10 PM

Try this forum. . .very much in line with many folks want:
http://www.politicalforum.com/


Ditto what FedAgent said: "Geeze, I have to go get my reading glasses checked! I have not read one posting here that dealt with politics in the least."

Please tell me what was said that qualified as "politics" so I can be sure to do more of it in the future.
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#31 OFFLINE   andyo

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Posted 02 January 2010 - 05:48 PM

I guess, on reading the posts, that it was mine that maybe qualifies as involving politics. As an infrequent poster, I am not so much up to speed with the Forum's etiquette on this matter and apologise if I have offended anyone or spoiled it for the other genuine posters.

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#32 OFFLINE   FedAgent

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Posted 02 January 2010 - 06:02 PM

I guess, on reading the posts, that it was mine that maybe qualifies as involving politics. As an infrequent poster, I am not so much up to speed with the Forum's etiquette on this matter and apologise if I have offended anyone or spoiled it for the other genuine posters.

Andy


Andy, not to worry. Your post was just fine. We just have a few folks here that insist that the only thing we should be allowed to talk about is pumps, wheels and types of roofs. On, and I almost forgot, ways to cook chicken is OK also.


Larry
Larry,<br />Corpus Christi, Tejas<br />2007 Lazy Daze Class C and a 2005 Jeep Wrangler toad<br />04 Dodge 3500, Cummins<br /><br /><strong class='bbc'>Only two defining forces have ever offered to die for you: 1. Jesus Christ. 2. The American G.I. One died for your soul, the other for your Freedom. </strong><br /><br /><br /><span style='font-family: Arial'><span style='color: #FF0000'>"We sleep safe in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit</span></span><br /><span style='color: #FF0000'>violence on those who would do us harm." - </span><span style='color: #000000'>George Orwell</span>

#33 OFFLINE   drylandfarmer

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Posted 02 January 2010 - 07:39 PM

As good citizens we should be discussing these issues that threaten our freedoms and our very lives. The terrorists are certainly discussing,planning and carrying out acts violence. If we can't discuss issues that affect our safety,freedoms are being compromised. Wake up people. We need to be united against these forces that want to kill us. These forces would surely rejoice if they silence dialogue among the citizenry.
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#34 OFFLINE   PigPen

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Posted 02 January 2010 - 08:24 PM

This is not a politcal thread. No one here is talking about which political party is doing or has done the best job to fight terrorism. Terrorism is an issue that affects all of us no matter how we vote. Especially those of us who fly. I feel it is in all our best interest to discuss how we can help spot these guys before they kill us.

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#35 OFFLINE   FedAgent

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Posted 10 January 2010 - 11:26 AM

I read this sometime ago, but I recently came across this again and decided it related to this topic and is pretty interesting reading:

A MUST READ FOR EVERYONE IN AMERICA!

Juval Aviv was the Israeli Agent upon whom the movie ' Munich ' was based.. He was Golda Meir's bodyguard - she appointed him to track down and bring to justice the Palestinian terrorists who took the Israeli athletes hostage and killed them during the Munich Olympic Games. In a lecture in New York City a few weeks ago, he shared information that EVERY American needs to know -- but that our government has not yet shared with us.

He predicted the London subway bombing on the Bill O'Reilly show on Fox News stating publicly that it would happen within a week. At the time, O'Reilly laughed and mocked him saying that in a week he wanted him back on the show. But, unfortunately, within a week the terrorist attack had occurred.

Juval Aviv gave intelligence (via what he had gathered in Israel and the Middle East) to the Bush Administration about 9/11 a month before it occurred. His report specifically said they would use planes as bombs and target high profile buildings and monuments. Congress has since hired him as a security consultant.

Now for his future predictions. He predicts the next terrorist attack on the U.S. Will occur within the next few months.

Forget hijacking airplanes, because he says terrorists will NEVER try and hijack a plane again as they know the people onboard will never go down quietly again. Aviv believes our airport security is a joke -- that we have been reactionary
rather than proactive in developing strategies that are truly effective..

For example:

1) Our airport technology is outdated. We look for metal, and the new explosives are made of plastic.

2) He talked about how some idiot tried to light his shoe on fire. Because of that, now everyone has to take off their shoes. A group of idiots tried to bring aboard liquid explosives. Now we can't bring liquids on board. He says he's waiting for some suicidal maniac to pour liquid explosive on his underwear; at which point, security will have us all traveling naked! Every strategy we have is reactionary.

3) We only focus on security when people are heading to the gates. Aviv says that if a terrorist attack targets airports in the future, they will target busy times on the front end of the airport when/where people are checking in. It would be easy for someone to take two suitcases of explosives, walk up to a
busy check-in line, ask a person next to them to watch their bags for a minute while they run to the restroom or get a drink and then detonate the bags BEFORE security even gets involved. In Israel, security checks bags BEFORE people can even ENTER the airport. (This was already being done at all airports in Japan thirty years ago!)

Aviv says the next terrorist attack here in America is imminent and will involve suicide bombers and non-suicide bombers in places where large groups of people congregate. (I. E., Disneyland, Las Vegas casinos, big cities New York, San Francisco, Chicago, etc.) and that it will also include shopping malls, subways in rush hour, train stations, etc.., as well as rural America this time (Wyoming, Montana, etc.).

The attack will be characterized by simultaneous detonations around the country (terrorists like big impact), involving at
least 5-8 cities, including rural areas.

Aviv says terrorists won't need to use suicide bombers in many of the larger cities, because at places like the MGM Grand in Las Vegas, they can simply valet park a car loaded with explosives and walk away.

Aviv says all of the above is well known in intelligence circles, but that our U. S.. Government does not want to 'alarm American citizens' with the facts. The world is quickly going to become 'a different place', and issues like 'global warming' and political correctness will become totally irrelevant..

On an encouraging note, he says that Americans don't have to be concerned about being nuked. Aviv says the terrorists who want to destroy America will not use sophisticated weapons. They like to use suicide as a front-line approach. It's cheap, it's easy, it's effective; and they have an infinite abundance of young militants more than willing to 'meet their destiny'.

He also says the next level of terrorists, over which America should be most concerned, will not be coming from abroad. But will be, instead, 'homegrown' - having attended and been educated in our own schools and universities right here in the U. S. He says to look for 'students' who frequently travel back and forth to the Middle East. These young terrorists will be most dangerous because they will know our language and will fully understand the habits of Americans; but that we Americans won't know/understand a thing about them.

Aviv says that, as a people, Americans are unaware and uneducated about the terrorist threats we will, inevitably, face. America still has only have a handful of Arabic and Farsi speaking people in our intelligence networks and Aviv says it
is critical that we change that fact SOON.

So, what can America do to protect itself? >From an intelligence perspective, Aviv says the U.S. needs to stop relying on satellites and technology for intelligence. We need to, instead, follow Israel 's, Ireland 's and England 's hands-on examples of human intelligence, both from an infiltration perspective as well as to trust 'aware' citizens to help. We need to engage and educate ourselves as citizens; however, our U. S. government continues to treat us, its citizens, 'like babies'. Our government thinks we 'can't handle the truth' and are concerned that we'll panic if we understand the realities of terrorism. Aviv says this is a deadly mistake.

Aviv recently created/executed a security test for our Congress, by placing an empty briefcase in five well-traveled spots in five major cities. The results? Not one person called 911 or sought a policeman to check it out...in fact, in Chicago, someone tried to steal the briefcase!

In comparison, Aviv says that citizens of Israel are so well 'trained' that an unattended bag or package would be reported in seconds by citizen(s) who know to publicly shout, 'Unattended Bag!' The area would be quickly & calmly cleared by the citizens themselves. But, unfortunately, America hasn't been yet 'hurt enough' by terrorism for their government to fully understand the need to educate its citizens or for the government to understand that it's their citizens who are, inevitably, the best first-line of defense against terrorism.

Aviv also was concerned about the high number of children here in America who were in preschool and kindergarten after 9/11, who were 'lost' without parents being able to pick them up, and about our schools that had no plan in place to best
care for the students until parents could get there. (In New York City, this was days, in some cases!)

He stresses the importance of having a plan, that's agreed upon within your family, to respond to in the event of a terrorist emergency. He urges parents to contact their children's schools and demand that the schools, too, develop plans of actions, as they do in Israel .

Does your family know what to do if you can't contact one another by phone? Where would you gather in an emergency? He says we should all have a plan that is easy enough for even our youngest children to remember and follow.

Aviv says that the U. S. government has in force a plan that, in the event of another terrorist attack, will immediately cut-off EVERYONE's ability to use cell phones, blackberries, etc., as this is the preferred communication source used by terrorists and is often the way that their bombs are detonated.

How will you communicate with your loved ones in the event you cannot speak? You need to have a plan.

Larry,<br />Corpus Christi, Tejas<br />2007 Lazy Daze Class C and a 2005 Jeep Wrangler toad<br />04 Dodge 3500, Cummins<br /><br /><strong class='bbc'>Only two defining forces have ever offered to die for you: 1. Jesus Christ. 2. The American G.I. One died for your soul, the other for your Freedom. </strong><br /><br /><br /><span style='font-family: Arial'><span style='color: #FF0000'>"We sleep safe in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit</span></span><br /><span style='color: #FF0000'>violence on those who would do us harm." - </span><span style='color: #000000'>George Orwell</span>

#36 OFFLINE   PigPen

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Posted 10 January 2010 - 12:46 PM

Very good article, I can't find a word I disagree with. It pretty much lays out that we are never safe from these guys no matter what we do. We can only hope to ward off some attempts by being vigilant, but sooner or later they will strike again. However, if we live in fear because of them, they have won. I think everyone has to remember that & put it all in perspective. You still have far more chance of dying in an automobile accident than a terrorist attack. But that does not mean we have to be complacent, either. I do wonder if the Olympics in Vancouver next month are on their radar. The budget for security will probably top any Olympics so far. Some are putting it at a billion dollars.

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#37 OFFLINE   Wendy

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Posted 15 January 2010 - 05:16 AM

I am enjoying following this thread. While driving between Savannah Georgia (beautiful city!!) and St Augustine, Fl last Sunday we were listening to our Sirius Radio CBC One and heard the attached file interview about flying today. It is featured on Hour Two, 30 minutes in, with Michael Enright. Apparently body scanners are not as useful as made out to be, and profiling is indeed the way to go.
CBC Radio interview
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#38 OFFLINE   farmer

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Posted 15 January 2010 - 07:55 AM

Thanks for the article Larry

I rode by the cruise ship terminal yesterday, and on the pier there were thousands of people lined up waiting to check in, this is more people in one small area, then what I have seen in airports.
There were 2 ships waiting to load, probably at least 3500 passengers.

We look at people, never used the word profile before, it was to guess where they were from.
We were at a Wal-mart and a costco yesterday at the south end of San Diego, the population is so blended, that it was kind of a reverse profiling it was way easier to spot the Caucasian people they were 1 in a 100.

Unless you are very well trained it will be harder to profile in certain parts of Canada or the USA.

By the way tomorrow we will be on the pier probably with thousands of people,I hope the bad guys take the weekend off.

#39 OFFLINE   FedAgent

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Posted 15 January 2010 - 08:32 AM

By the way tomorrow we will be on the pier probably with thousands of people,I hope the bad guys take the weekend off.



Me too. I hope you and Susanne have a memorable cruise without incident or health issues.

Larry
Larry,<br />Corpus Christi, Tejas<br />2007 Lazy Daze Class C and a 2005 Jeep Wrangler toad<br />04 Dodge 3500, Cummins<br /><br /><strong class='bbc'>Only two defining forces have ever offered to die for you: 1. Jesus Christ. 2. The American G.I. One died for your soul, the other for your Freedom. </strong><br /><br /><br /><span style='font-family: Arial'><span style='color: #FF0000'>"We sleep safe in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit</span></span><br /><span style='color: #FF0000'>violence on those who would do us harm." - </span><span style='color: #000000'>George Orwell</span>

#40 OFFLINE   PigPen

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Posted 15 January 2010 - 07:01 PM

Well the good news is its warm down in Mexico, i am only as far south as san Carlos & it hit 30 today

2014 Snowriver 234RBS

 

trailer.JPG





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